Author Topic: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread  (Read 5264 times)

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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« on: July 01, 2010, 08:01:53 pm »
I'm going to have a bunch of separate calls for criticism as I get started so I thought it would be more economical to put them in one thread rather than spamming a whole bunch of "is this alright?" threads

That being said, I have time to do some nouns before the Daily Show comes on.

two eyes (stem nari) - menari
three homes (kelku) - pxehelku
four+ bodies (tokx) - aysokx / sokx
two thanators (palulukan) - mefalulukan
two friends ('eylan) - meylan
three beats ('ekong) - pxekong

And here's me on audio saying all that:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ntlqchiqyny

Ok thus far?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 12:32:37 pm by kemeoauniaea »
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 08:12:56 pm »
The others are good, but you missed the lenition on this one:

four+ bodies (tokx) - aytokx / tokx

Should be aysokx or sokx.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 08:19:09 pm »
Ah ok. You'll notice I said it correctly in the wav though. Or at least I lenited it. Thanks
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 08:20:12 pm »
I'm guessing that was just a typo...  Cause the pronunciation is correct with that respect.

Your "pxe" is a bit odd sounding...  I'm not sure if the actual ejected part is being said right, to my ears it almost sounds more like a tx than a px, but then it's immediately followed by a vowel, but it sounds more like a schwa than /e/...  Then there's a pause, followed by the rest of the word.  Ideally, it should be the ejective, immediately flowing into the rest of the word with no pause there.

Your /e/ in mefalulukan sounds more like /ey/ like the /mey/ in meylan.

'eylan is stressed on the /ey/ syllable, and that should still remain after lenition and elision.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 08:29:43 pm »
I'm guessing that was just a typo...  Cause the pronunciation is correct with that respect.

Your "pxe" is a bit odd sounding...  I'm not sure if the actual ejected part is being said right, to my ears it almost sounds more like a tx than a px, but then it's immediately followed by a vowel, but it sounds more like a schwa than /e/...  Then there's a pause, followed by the rest of the word.  Ideally, it should be the ejective, immediately flowing into the rest of the word with no pause there.

There's no excuse for the pause but if px sounded like tx it's probably cos I have a crappy mic

Your /e/ in mefalulukan sounds more like /ey/ like the /mey/ in meylan.

Ok.

'eylan is stressed on the /ey/ syllable, and that should still remain after lenition and elision.

How do you know what syllable to stress

It's straightforward in like Sindarin but I have no idea about general stress rule(s) in Na'vi
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 08:32:13 pm »
There's no general stress rule, it's arbitrary per word.  In Taronyu's dictionary you have to look at the IPA for the stresses.  On the wikibooks dictionary and Learn Na'vi wiki vocabulary, the stress is marked through bold letters.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 08:35:21 pm »
Ah right that kind of sucks

Oh well

Onwards...
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2010, 07:46:58 pm »
"Zola'u nìprrte'"

Why the perfective infix?

For Swedish speakers or anyone vaguely familiar with Germanic languages is it not an imperative so much as it is short for something like "(Jag hoppas att du känner sig) välkommen" (literally "well-come")
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2010, 02:28:39 am »
It's not an imperative in na'vi either, all affectuals are relative to the speaker so nìprrte' might be too in which case it would mean something along the lines of "that you came is pleasing".
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2010, 02:46:47 am »
For Swedish speakers or anyone vaguely familiar with Germanic languages is it not an imperative so much as it is short for something like "(Jag hoppas att du känner sig) välkommen" (literally "well-come")

Notably, "well-come" is contracted in English to a more idiomatic "welcome," meaning something like "{Thy} well come," so "zola'(ei)u nìprrte'" makes perfect sense. ;)
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2010, 03:01:50 am »
Cool cool

How's this. First attempt at a trivial but legit sentence:

"Aylì’fya a ke lu lesar lu sìltsan"

If that's alright can I mix it up to make things interesting like this maybe

"Aylì’fya a lesar ke lu lu sìltsan."
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2010, 03:59:25 am »
No grammatical erors in either sentence as far as I can see although I probably avoid having the two "lu"s next to each other and I'd probably use a slightly different word order:

aylì'fya a lesar ke lu sìltsan lu

That said, both of yours are fine, this is purely stylistic.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2010, 04:11:44 pm »
I take it the preferred word order is SOV.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2010, 04:55:08 pm »
I take it the preferred word order is SOV.

Some have promulgated this or that "preferred" word order on the forums, but looking at Frommer's own Na'vi, no such pattern arises.  Looking at his first blog post and the "message from Paul" on MaSempul.org (sticking with sentences with an overt direct object):

OrderFirst BlogAMFPTotal
SVO235
SOV415
VSO527
OVS011
OSV022

This hardly scientific — we'd need to look at everything Pawl has uttered in Na'vi to get good enough examples to make statisticians happy — but it seems pretty clear that SOV isn't preferred, unless we're prepared to say that is first blog post and the Ma Sempul message are highly deviant in some way.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2010, 05:11:33 pm »
SOV is a habit some of us fell into at the beginning when we had a lot fewer examples and a ton of them were SOV, now we have an awful lot of counter examples.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 05:55:53 pm »
Well the feedback I got from Frommer on teaching word order was...

Quote from: Karyu Pawl
One approach you might take is to say that all six arrangements of oel, gati, and ce'a mean "I see you," although the emphasis and focus may be different in each case. But rather than giving beginners complete free rein with word order, which not only wouldn't be true to the pragmatics of the language but would probably make learning more difficult, it would be better to pick out the most common arrangements of S, O, V, namely SVO and SOV, and urge them to stick to those for the time being.

My interpretation of what he is getting at is that "SVO" and "SOV" are always "safe" orders, so it is a reasonable thing to teach (With a few exceptions, like the possessive use of lu coming first), and that just shuffling words around for the sake of shuffling words around should not be encouraged until people have a better grasp on the language and a feel for what the difference might be.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2010, 06:14:25 pm »
I take it the preferred word order is SOV.

Some have promulgated this or that "preferred" word order on the forums, but looking at Frommer's own Na'vi, no such pattern arises.  Looking at his first blog post and the "message from Paul" on MaSempul.org (sticking with sentences with an overt direct object):

OrderFirst BlogAMFPTotal
SVO235
SOV415
VSO527
OVS011
OSV022

This hardly scientific — we'd need to look at everything Pawl has uttered in Na'vi to get good enough examples to make statisticians happy — but it seems pretty clear that SOV isn't preferred, unless we're prepared to say that is first blog post and the Ma Sempul message are highly deviant in some way.

So basically it doesn't really matter.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Kyle Kepone

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2010, 06:31:56 pm »
No, it matters. There isn't a universally accepted sentence order (as far as I've learned) but it's always good to think about such order when considering the best aesthetic/semantic option.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2010, 06:42:32 pm »
So just use what sounds good?
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Kyle Kepone

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2010, 06:57:47 pm »
What sounds good and what makes sense. So, srane. :)
Oe lu 'eylan lì'fyayä leNa'vi

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