Author Topic: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread  (Read 5269 times)

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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2010, 08:23:19 pm »
My understanding is that Finnish allows something similar with word order although when you want to emphasize something you introduce early in the clause

Is that what Na'vi does
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Kyle Kepone

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2010, 09:32:55 pm »
Erm, I'm going to go ahead and say srane. But honestly, nì'ìnglìsì is my only fluent language, and Na'vi is a very, very distant second. omängum fra'uti or kemeoauniaea might be able to help more.
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2010, 09:40:08 pm »
My understanding is that Finnish allows something similar with word order although when you want to emphasize something you introduce early in the clause

Is that what Na'vi does

Well, we know that, in cases when a noun in the sentence takes the topical case marker, that noun generally comes right at the front of the sentence.

And then, Karyu Pawl gave us his version of the sentence Ngeyä kxetse lu oeru!—specifically, he moved "oeru" to the end of the sentence—he said, for "punch".

So...that gives us a little bit of insight into the Na'vi use of word order.  But for more specifics, we'll have to wait to hear more from Karyu Pawl.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2010, 12:11:44 am »
k how's this

"Txo nga tsun fì'ut tslivam, tskarr ngeyä ta'leng skxakep ean lu."

"If you can read this, then your skin is probably blue."

(Still mainly interested in self-conscious novelty phrases. I'll mature eventually.)
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2010, 02:54:22 am »
Those sentences are good.



As a bit of (hopefully) clarification about the two "safe" word orders SVO and SOV, SVO can sound very English, or it can not, the important thing is that, whilst SVO and SOV both put more focus on the subject than the object, SVO puts a bit of a "punch" on the object, the way I've been interpreting this (which, given my track record with interpreting Frommerian statements could well be wrong :D) is that the final position is a secondary focus and so might, for a lot of English sentences put more emphasis than might be desired.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2010, 09:21:16 am »
Cross-linguistically, topics are often definite, that is, they refer to an established or inferable discourse topic.  Old news, in other words.  Since Frommer puts topical noun phrases clause-initial in everything except one poem, I'm inclined to see the clause-initial position as neutral or topical, rather than focused.  If I'm interpreting the "punch" statement correctly only the clause-final position is focused.  But Frommer himself has said the details of this have not yet been worked out in detail.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2010, 09:54:48 am »
I guess another thing I'd like to add is that even if the clause-final position is where the "punch" is we probably should not assume that the final position always encodes punch.  Not every utterance we make has to have high information density.  Sometimes we're giving a bunch of basic, background information, and while it needs to be clear, it's not always the case that anything needs to be focused.  As always in real conversation, context matters, as well as speech patterns we don't usually see in writing.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2010, 02:13:22 pm »
Cross-linguistically, topics are often definite, that is, they refer to an established or inferable discourse topic.  Old news, in other words.  Since Frommer puts topical noun phrases clause-initial in everything except one poem, I'm inclined to see the clause-initial position as neutral or topical, rather than focused.  If I'm interpreting the "punch" statement correctly only the clause-final position is focused.  But Frommer himself has said the details of this have not yet been worked out in detail.

Didn't Frommer also send an email saying that the clause initial position was the focus? I could have sworn he did.

I guess another thing I'd like to add is that even if the clause-final position is where the "punch" is we probably should not assume that the final position always encodes punch.  Not every utterance we make has to have high information density.  Sometimes we're giving a bunch of basic, background information, and while it needs to be clear, it's not always the case that anything needs to be focused.  As always in real conversation, context matters, as well as speech patterns we don't usually see in writing.

Quoted for truth.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2010, 08:11:48 pm »
Alright how's:

"Oel ftxamey lì'fyati Na'viyä tup fì'ut."

"I chose the language of the People instead of [the other]."

"The other" in this case is "Sindarin" but as you might have already guessed I'm not sure how it would be translated. I'm not good enough to form loans spontaneously as of yet.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Kyle Kepone

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2010, 08:25:42 pm »
Alright how's:

"Oel ftxamey lì'fyati Na'viyä tup fì'ut."

"I chose the language of the People instead of [the other]."

"The other" in this case is "Sindarin" but as you might have already guessed I'm not sure how it would be translated. I'm not good enough to form loans spontaneously as of yet.

It might be nìSintxärinì. Just a guess.    ;D
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2010, 08:35:23 pm »
Alright how's:

"Oel ftxamey lì'fyati Na'viyä tup fì'ut."

"I chose the language of the People instead of [the other]."

"The other" in this case is "Sindarin" but as you might have already guessed I'm not sure how it would be translated. I'm not good enough to form loans spontaneously as of yet.

It might be nìSintxärinì. Just a guess.    ;D

Based on the little i know of Tolkien's Elvish languages, i would say Sìntxarìn.  Although, in the interest of full disclosure, i was more into Quenya, myself ;)
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2010, 08:42:04 pm »
The thing I like about lì'fya Na'viyä is that it's got a lot of the good things about a language like Finnish but not quite the same horrendous learning curve. Quenya has both.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2010, 08:45:33 pm »
The thing I like about lì'fya Na'viyä is that it's got a lot of the good things about a language like Finnish but not quite the same horrendous learning curve. Quenya has both.

Hehe.  Yeah, that's probably why my attempt to teach myself Quenya was a no-starter.  That, and i was in high school at the time, and didn't really have enough of a language background to grasp the concepts the way i needed.  Having now taken three foreign languages and being older and (theoretically) wiser than i was then, it's helped.  Although, truth be told, i would like to go back to Quenya someday and try it again.  But i really did fall in love with the Na'vi language.  Hence why we're here ;)
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2010, 09:44:52 pm »
I agree with you, Tigermind. Now that I am older, I am enjoying things I didn't like as much when I was younger, like calculus, recreational mathematics, and now, new languages. Maybe we are alike in some ways, in that lions and tigers have pretty close minds  ::)

I am sure I have read, in more that one place (one of them being NIAN) that you want to put your strongest point at the beginning of the sentence, the second strongest at the end, and the weakest in the middle.

I see the beginnings on Na`vi idioms in some of thee ideas!

NeuraltNätverk, I like some of your sentence ideas!

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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2010, 09:44:14 pm »
What's a verb for "threaten"

I want to translate Cornholio saying "Are you threatening me?"

Can't find anything in the dictionary
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2010, 02:24:45 am »
There's no single word yet, but you can carry across the meaning with "fmeri ngal futa txopu seyki oeti srak".
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2010, 02:35:09 am »
There ought to be one. Does Paul Frommer have some kind of venue for suggesting new words?
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2010, 02:50:27 am »
He's currently got about 1000 words given by us for him to translate so we should probably give him room. That said, it doesn't seem to be on there, if you want you can post it in the Q list which is a set of words for us to send once we get words back from the language expansion project (LEP)
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2010, 03:20:07 am »
Oh yeah if that be the case I feel sorry for the guy

I'm just trying to parse that sentence you write in my head to make sense of it and learn something

Fmeri is fmi with the imperfective aspect ok

ngal is you with the ergative marker

futa/tsnì I'm a bit confused about ... as it seems Na'vi verbs differ in transitivity or intransitivity in subtle ways. I see in NiaN "Oe ätxäle sami tsaru." That's very strange. The object has to be indirect in this case.

Not clear on when "eyk" should be used with "si".

Then the word for "me" is a direct object I see.

And "srak" is a y/n particle. Ok. That's straightforward.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Muzer

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2010, 07:08:24 am »
futa is in the accusative and turns a clause into an object (of the fmi clause). Fmi is transitive, so you use futa.

Eyk is the causative, and translates roughly to make - so it's saying "make me fear".

The full literal sentence is "are you trying this make-me-fear-thing?"
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

 

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