Author Topic: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread  (Read 5270 times)

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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2010, 07:34:39 am »
futa is in the accusative and turns a clause into an object (of the fmi clause). Fmi is transitive, so you use futa.

Eyk is the causative, and translates roughly to make - so it's saying "make me fear".

The full literal sentence is "are you trying this make-me-fear-thing?"

What's being translated as "thing" here
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2010, 07:44:17 am »
Fmi is transitive, so you use futa.

Except we have fmi being used with modal verb syntax by Frommer.  So,

 Fmeri nga txopu seykivi oeti srak?
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2010, 08:04:57 am »
Fmi is transitive, so you use futa.

Except we have fmi being used with modal verb syntax by Frommer.  So,

 Fmeri nga txopu seykivi oeti srak?

Would it be ngal? There's a direct object here yes?
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2010, 08:09:44 am »
Would it be ngal? There's a direct object here yes?

There is a direct object — of txopu seyki, not the modal.  Modals are treated as intransitive when used in the usual modal way.  The verb new can be more complex (see Jan 20 entry).
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2010, 08:12:40 am »
Would it be ngal? There's a direct object here yes?

There is a direct object — of txopu seyki, not the modal.  Modals are treated as intransitive when used in the usual modal way.  The verb new can be more complex (see Jan 20 entry).

...



And how can I become so wizardly?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 08:15:46 am by NeuraltNätverk »
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2010, 09:31:43 am »
Would it be ngal? There's a direct object here yes?

There is a direct object — of txopu seyki, not the modal.  Modals are treated as intransitive when used in the usual modal way.  The verb new can be more complex (see Jan 20 entry).

Surely you could use the ergative if you wanted to and treat the nga as being an argument of txopu seyki instead of fmeri?

Fmi is transitive, so you use futa.

Except we have fmi being used with modal verb syntax by Frommer.  So,

 Fmeri nga txopu seykivi oeti srak?

I'd forgotten that. Given that fmi is listed as a transitive verb would it not also make sense for it to take the long modal form like new? Either way it would still need the <iv> in txopu seyki though.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2010, 11:14:26 am »
Surely you could use the ergative if you wanted to and treat the nga as being an argument of txopu seyki instead of fmeri?

I'm not sure I correctly understand what you're saying here.  If nga were actually an argument of txopu seyki, then it would be ergative (ngal poti txopu seyki).  But modal verbs do not exhibit "transitivity solidarity" with the verbs they control, so this would not be correct: *ngal fmi txopu seykivi...


Quote
I'd forgotten that. Given that fmi is listed as a transitive verb would it not also make sense for it to take the long modal form like new? Either way it would still need the <iv> in txopu seyki though.

Almost all our judgements of transitivity are either guesses based on English semantics or derived from Frommerian examples of Na'vi.  While fmi might have a transitive use, too (something like "test"), without confirmation from Frommer I'd probably avoid treating it like new.  I'm also having a hard time concocting a usage example for that.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2010, 02:20:43 pm »
What I meant was that instead of splitting the clauses {fmeri nga {txopu seykivi oeti}} if you split it {fmeri {ngal txopu seykivi oeti}}, it certainly wouldn't be a good way of saying it because then it could easily be turned into nonsense if someone thought they heard a noun before it, I was just wondering if it was possible anyway.

As for the transitivity, I think I've said before that I think it would be worth marking verbs that can/do take the modal syntax separately, as demonstrated, it can be confusing otherwise.
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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2010, 04:33:19 pm »
Would it be ngal? There's a direct object here yes?
When a pronoun (maybe noun too), are used with a modal verb it has to be on one side of it, the direct object still takes the accusative marker. The subject then takes no ergative marker.

as for the futa you asked about, they mean this-thing-that.
Futa = fì-'u-ti a (accusative)
Oel new futa... (I want that...)

Fwa = fì-'u a (intransitive)
Prrte' lu oeru fwa... (It pleaseable is to me that...)

Furia = fì-'u-ri a (topical)
Irayo seiyi oe ngaru furia... (I thank you for-that...)

New is a modal-verb, but isn't used modally here, so "oe" takes the ergative case.

The tsnì is used with some verbs, like sìlpey (to hope)
Oe sìpley tsnì nga tslivam fì'ut. (I hope that you understand this.)

Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2010, 10:25:24 pm »
"Will fly" - "tswayayon"? Something doesn't look right about it.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2010, 11:57:43 pm »
"Will fly" - "tswayayon"? Something doesn't look right about it.

Yeah, we know.  But that's really what it is—trust me, this conversation's been had ;)

Every language is gonna have little quirky things like that.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2010, 01:02:13 am »
Alright how's this

I'm just going to keep doing trial and error with small sentences like the following until I feel "intermediate"

"Awngal hunsìpit skasya'eia Tawtuteyä!!!"

Where does it say it should be "awngal" rather "ayeongal" btw. I see it being used but I can't find the source.
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline Kä'eng

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2010, 01:31:30 am »
Alright how's this

I'm just going to keep doing trial and error with small sentences like the following until I feel "intermediate"

"Awngal hunsìpit skasya'eia Tawtuteyä!!!"

Where does it say it should be "awngal" rather "ayeongal" btw. I see it being used but I can't find the source.
awnga is a contraction of ayoeng(a). From what we've seen, if there's no inflection for case, both forms are common, but if there is, awnga is much more common (probably because it's one syllable shorter then). I believe we first got confirmation of it in the January 20 "A Message From Paul" (post by roger noting it).

BTW, Tawtuteyä should probably be moved next to its possession, hunsìpit (on either side). And shouldn't it be Sawtuteyä? I don't think one Tawtute would have multiple hunsìp.
Ma evi, ke'u ke lu prrte' to fwa sim tuteot ayawne.
Slä txo tuteo fmi 'ivampi ngat ro seng, fu nìfya'o, a 'eykefu ngati vä', tsakem ke lu sìltsan.
Tsaw lu ngeyä tokx! Kawtu ke tsun nìmuiä 'ivampi ngat txo ngal ke new tsakemit.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2010, 02:04:46 am »
Alright how's this

I'm just going to keep doing trial and error with small sentences like the following until I feel "intermediate"

"Awngal hunsìpit skasya'eia Tawtuteyä!!!"

Where does it say it should be "awngal" rather "ayeongal" btw. I see it being used but I can't find the source.
awnga is a contraction of ayoeng(a). From what we've seen, if there's no inflection for case, both forms are common, but if there is, awnga is much more common (probably because it's one syllable shorter then). I believe we first got confirmation of it in the January 20 "A Message From Paul" (post by roger noting it).

BTW, Tawtuteyä should probably be moved next to its possession, hunsìpit (on either side). And shouldn't it be Sawtuteyä? I don't think one Tawtute would have multiple hunsìp.

Yes. Those mistakes were just dumb. So I'd make it:

"Awngal hunsìpit Sawtuteyä skasya'eia"
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2010, 02:53:41 am »
Alright how's this

I'm just going to keep doing trial and error with small sentences like the following until I feel "intermediate"

"Awngal hunsìpit skasya'eia Tawtuteyä!!!"

Where does it say it should be "awngal" rather "ayeongal" btw. I see it being used but I can't find the source.
awnga is a contraction of ayoeng(a). From what we've seen, if there's no inflection for case, both forms are common, but if there is, awnga is much more common (probably because it's one syllable shorter then). I believe we first got confirmation of it in the January 20 "A Message From Paul" (post by roger noting it).

Actually ayoeng might not be any longer. Remember that inflected forms of oe can be pronounced we, presumably this would hold for ayoeng which could be pronounced ayweng.

I think it's important to note that neither is the longer form, the full form that they both come from is: ayoenga but that has very much fallen out of use. ayoeng lost the a whilst awnga lost the y and the e. Two forms for the same things tend not to stick around to long as far as I understand so one had to come to prominence and that was awnga.
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2010, 03:52:00 am »
Oh crap tense v. aspect again.

I pretty much stopped studying German after high school but now Na'vi seems to be dredging it up again. This always confused me:

"Trram oe tolaron." - "Yesterday I hunted."

Would it be totally inappropriate to say: "Trram oe tamaron"? Using German as a reference point:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1767586

Here two sentences, one with past tense and the other with past tense and perfect aspect are equated. (Whether they should be equated, idk, I'm focusing on Na'vi not German. But it's the example that matters.)

In 5.9 in NiaN, I don't understand how the distinction between present perfect and past imperfect is made. My own understanding is that, in the story, past imperfective is used whenever an event is being discussed concurrently with another, shorter event that takes place in its temporal span. Ex: "... Neytiri tsw<arm>ayon ulte oe poru sy<ol>aw." Here Neytiri is flying around and as that's happening, whoever is narrating the story calls out to her. Otherwise present perfect is used.

But then what is simple past tense for?
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2010, 04:18:54 am »
Both would be just as acceptable but say different things about the action.

Trram oe tolaron would mean that yesterday you hunted, the hunting is over now and we can see the action as a whole which happened yesterday.

If you say trram oe tamaron that would mean that yesterday you hunted but the action may not be over or may have spread over a period of time or may be finished now but didn't finish yesterday.

<ol> is used when the action is seen as a whole, <er> when its ends cannot easily be seen and others are used for everything else.

edit: I forgot to note that, if I understand this correctly, aspect applies at the time the tense indicates the verb is (that sentence didn't make much sense so I'll try to explain it a bit more), <ol> means that the action can be seen as a whole now whilst a hypothetical future perfective would mean that in the future it will be complete and could be viewed as a single action, or a point; whilst a past perfective would mean that in the past it could be viewed as a point either to say that it can't now (unlikely) or to emphasise that it ended longer ago. (Didn't we use to have an infix *<ìlm>? I could have sworn we did but it's not in the dictionary)

As another example, <er> means that the action is ongoing now, <arm> means it was ongoing but presumably isn't now otherwise you might use <er> and a future imperfective would mean it will be ongoing, but presumably isn't now.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 04:26:09 am by kemeoauniaea »
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Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2010, 04:29:27 am »
So are you saying there wouldn't be a serious issue with rewriting the passage in NiaN 5.9 with simple past tense in every instance of present tense perfect aspect

If one's preferred I'll try to hold myself to it, but if the distinction is small enough I'll just use whatever seems good from my Anglophone perspective
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2010, 04:40:00 am »
The distinction is pretty small, and mostly raised when someone messes up. I tend to use «alm» more than anything else, because that way I get both senses in. «ol» doesn't seem to me to have the distinction of not being in the recent past, which is what separates «am» for «ìm». By and large, the usage is up to you - stat's haven't been done, but I'm fairly certain that one isn't preferred over the other.

Offline NeuraltNätverk

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Re: NeuraltNätverk's basic crap thread
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2010, 09:58:44 am »
"Fpole' ayngal oer fìtxan nìftxavang a 'upxare-t stolawm oel."

Ugh left branching!!!

How common is this kind of monstrosity?

Also how can I say "I like X"? Something along the lines of "X mowan oeru lu"?

Specifically, I'm trolling someone on facebook who said he likes my new avatar (profile pic), and said: "Mipa uniltìrantokx oeyä mowan ngaru lu srak?"
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 11:12:13 am by NeuraltNätverk »
"Uhh ... we should put it out something that it likes and then when it comes to get it we can kill it."
"Oh yeah heh heh ... cool ... um heh ... what do flies like?"
"Uhh ... they like garbage and crap."
"Oh yeah yeah heh heh ... flies are pretty cool sometimes, yeah eh heh heh."

 

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