Author Topic: Question about Patientive vs. Dative  (Read 1590 times)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2010, 04:25:00 pm »

*Pol oeru poleng fya'ot a tsaw lolen.
*Po oeru poleng teri fya'o a tsaw lolen.

My feeling is that the second would be the correct way, but I'm not sure on that.

Why would you say the second one is more correct? At least to me, the first example is more direct and clear.

Als, why isn't the second example case marked, seeing that peng is transitive?

well i agree with omängum.

and to answer that second one, its because of teri. remember that the second you have a prepositional phrase, case endings pretty much go out the window...

EDIT: More accurately, What Carborundum said.

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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2010, 05:13:35 pm »

*Pol oeru poleng fya'ot a tsaw lolen.
*Po oeru poleng teri fya'o a tsaw lolen.

My feeling is that the second would be the correct way, but I'm not sure on that.

Why would you say the second one is more correct? At least to me, the first example is more direct and clear.

Als, why isn't the second example case marked, seeing that peng is transitive?
The first may be "More direct" but it feel to me like it is subtly leaning on English grammar to attain that directness.  When you think about it literally, a way is not something that can be directly told.  A story can be told, but a way can not.  Rather, you tell someone about the way something happened.

As a disclaimer I could very well be wrong on this one...  Or it's possible neither would be correct.
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2010, 05:16:55 pm »
Maybe we need to ask Pawl :)
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2010, 05:44:17 pm »
Maybe we need to ask Pawl :)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2010, 09:23:27 pm »

well i agree with omängum.

and to answer that second one, its because of teri. remember that the second you have a prepositional phrase, case endings pretty much go out the window...

EDIT: More accurately, What Carborundum said.

So can I safely conclude:

1. Case endings are not used with prepositions, with prepositions taking precedence over case endings.

2. If a preposition, for instance, removes case markings on the patient, it also causes case markings on the agent to disappear? Or is this one of these odd cases where the agent would have a case marking, but not the patient? (or vice versa?)

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2010, 09:29:17 pm »
So can I safely conclude:

1. Case endings are not used with prepositions, with prepositions taking precedence over case endings.

Yes.

Quote
2. If a preposition, for instance, removes case markings on the patient, it also causes case markings on the agent to disappear? Or is this one of these odd cases where the agent would have a case marking, but not the patient? (or vice versa?)

If a word has an adposition, it cannot, by definition, be a patient.  We just had an update (well, a very delayed piece of old news) about verbs of speaking: Sì'eyng a ftu Na'ring °12, which seems relevant here.
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 09:35:06 pm »

well i agree with omängum.

and to answer that second one, its because of teri. remember that the second you have a prepositional phrase, case endings pretty much go out the window...

EDIT: More accurately, What Carborundum said.

So can I safely conclude:

1. Case endings are not used with prepositions, with prepositions taking precedence over case endings.

2. If a preposition, for instance, removes case markings on the patient, it also causes case markings on the agent to disappear? Or is this one of these odd cases where the agent would have a case marking, but not the patient? (or vice versa?)
That's probably not the clearest way to think of it.  It is correct that you don't use a case ending and adposition on the same word, but it's not a case of one replacing the other.  They do different things.  The patientive case indicates something which is somehow part of the verbs action, while the adposition clarifies more about how the action is being performed.

Oel tsatskxeti tse'a
I see that rock

Here that rock is directly what is being seen.

Oe io tsatskxe tse'a
I see above that rock

The adposition io didn't replace the patientive case...  I am no longer saying I am seeing something specific, rather I can see above that rock now.  It's a different meaning.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 09:50:54 pm »

Oe io tsatskxe tse'a
I see above that rock

The adposition io didn't replace the patientive case...  I am no longer saying I am seeing something specific, rather I can see above that rock now.  It's a different meaning.

Ok, I see what you mean here.
But since you no longer have a patient, the agent does not need to be case-marked, even though tse`a is transitive?

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Question about Patientive vs. Dative
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 09:56:28 pm »
Maybe we need to ask Pawl :)

second to fourty-two, this is the answer to everything HRH

I HRRH'd at the though too :P

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