Trying some sentences

[MIPP]

But, ma Tirea, what I said is correct, right? (I already saw you corrected a few mistakes, I'm sorry)

except fula. fula is specifically designed to have a bunch of stuff be the -l that pairs with a -t of a transitive sentence. you used two intransitive verbs in that example.

I apologize for my mistake.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Errors aside, MIPP, that is a really helpful post on a subject that confuses lots of people, including me.

Karma +1

[Tirea Aean]

But, ma Tirea, what I said is correct, right? (I already saw you corrected a few mistakes, I'm sorry)

except fula. fula is specifically designed to have a bunch of stuff be the -l that pairs with a -t of a transitive sentence. you used two intransitive verbs in that example.

I apologize for my mistake.

oeru txoa livu.

Errors aside, MIPP, that is a really helpful post on a subject that confuses lots of people, including me.

Karma +1

agreed.

I bet mine would make more sense if i had included examples... but really, you could look in the quote and see MIPP's examples (and the correction to fula).

correct examples are POWERFUL for learning.

['Oma Tirea]

Finally, I should add that "tsala", although the construction is easily recognizable, has not yet been comfirmed as a word like "fula".  There may also be the rare dative forms "fura" and "tsara", except they are virtually non-existent, so...

[Tirea Aean]

Finally, I should add that "tsala", although the construction is easily recognizable, has not yet been comfirmed as a word like "fula".  There may also be the rare dative forms "fura" and "tsara", except they are virtually non-existent, so...

true, and true..and true. Thanks for bringing this to light.

the tsa'u forms are apparently not nearly as common as the fì'u forms, and "tsala" indeed is not a confirmed word but seeing as ever single other form seems to exist, i figured its not that big a stretch that tsala would exist... and It is tough to think of an example of the dative forms that is not a stretch.

[MIPP]

Finally, I should add that "tsala", although the construction is easily recognizable, has not yet been comfirmed as a word like "fula".  There may also be the rare dative forms "fura" and "tsara", except they are virtually non-existent, so...

true, and true..and true. Thanks for bringing this to light.

the tsa'u forms are apparently not nearly as common as the fì'u forms, and "tsala" indeed is not a confirmed word but seeing as ever single other form seems to exist, i figured its not that big a stretch that tsala would exist... and It is tough to think of an example of the dative forms that is not a stretch.

Unfortunately I don't understand the tsa'u forms and I really dislike them.

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Errors aside, MIPP, that is a really helpful post on a subject that confuses lots of people, including me.

Karma +1

agreed.

I bet mine would make more sense if i had included examples... but really, you could look in the quote and see MIPP's examples (and the correction to fula).

correct examples are POWERFUL for learning.

Yes, I think MIPP's examples + your explanation are going to be the perfect help together

As for the tsa'u forms, I have no idea about them, so I guess I'm first going to stick with what has been explained above.

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Sorry for the double post, but I have new sentences

He's looking at the two words.
Po-an<ìl> n<er>ìn me-lì'u<t>.

I thought your promise was correct.
Oe<l> fp<am>ìl nge-yä pänu eyawr o<am>.
(I didn't know where to put the accusative suffix.)

Her child will soon want many friends.
Po-e-yä 'eveng<ìl> n<ìy>ew tx<iv>an ay-eylan.
(Wasn't sure about the location of <iv>.)

[Tirea Aean]

Finally, I should add that "tsala", although the construction is easily recognizable, has not yet been comfirmed as a word like "fula".  There may also be the rare dative forms "fura" and "tsara", except they are virtually non-existent, so...

true, and true..and true. Thanks for bringing this to light.

the tsa'u forms are apparently not nearly as common as the fì'u forms, and "tsala" indeed is not a confirmed word but seeing as ever single other form seems to exist, i figured its not that big a stretch that tsala would exist... and It is tough to think of an example of the dative forms that is not a stretch.

Unfortunately I don't understand the tsa'u forms and I really dislike them.

dislike them? heh?? they are the exact same thing as the fì'u forms... except tsa'u instead of fì'u. they do the exact same thing. when you say fwa, you arent saying that, you are saying this. because fì'u means this.

i have told one of my students this is another way i like to look at the fì'u and tsa'u family:

Oel omum futa nga lu numeyu.
I know this: you are student.

Prrte' lu oeru fwa oeng tsun pivängkxo.
pleasing is to me this: we can chat.

I think of futa and fwa as "this:"

I think of a fì'ut and a fì'u as ", this" natkenong:

nga lu numeyu a fì'ut oel omum
you are student, this I know.

oeng tsun pivängkxo a fì'u prrte' lu oeru.
we can chat, this pleasing is to me.

tsa'u forms apparently are for rehashing somewhat aged things. here is a really complicated but good example of usilng tsawa, the tsa'u form parallel to fwa...

[supersnip]

Tsawa ngal kawkrr sngelit ke munge wrrpane ulte nìtut zene
   ätxäle sirvängi ngar oe, steyki fìtxan fte keng ke tsivun tsawteri
   fpivìl luke fwa sngä'i tsngivawvìk.

   "Your never taking out the trash and my having to constantly ask
     you to do it makes me so angry that I can't even think about it
     without starting to cry."

[megasupersnip]

I would interpret that like this:
"That you never take the trash out and I continually must ask you, angers (me) this much so that (I) cannot think about it without starting to cry."

the MAIN backbone of the sentence is in bold. crazy eh? this is also a good example of the well-overlooked Na'vi principle of subject-pronoun dropping.

later in that post:
The contrast between «fwa/tsawa», «furia/tsaria», etc...

There is a full set of «tsa-»-based conjucntions that corresponds to the «fì-»-based patterns.[/size]

fwa	futa	furia
tsawa	tsata	tsaria

The most common and "default" formation is via a form in «fì-», however, when the topic being discussed is something that has been previously established between the speaker and listener, «tsa-» can indicate this distinction. In this example, all references to the trash being/not being taken out are in something «tsa-» (because they have been discussed/rehashed between these two (speaker and listener) over and over again. However, the speaker getting upset enough to cry about it is new, so "without starting to cry" is in «fwa» and not «tsawa». You are not required to make this distinction. This is a subtlety of the language available to those to whom this kind of granularity is important. The choice of «tsawa» over «fwa» is subjective and at the speaker's discretion.

[MIPP]

Sorry for the double post, but I have new sentences

He's looking at the two words.
Po-an<ìl> n<er>ìn me-lì'u<t>.

I thought your promise was correct.
Oe<l> fp<am>ìl nge-yä pänu eyawr o<am>.
(I didn't know where to put the accusative suffix.)

Her child will soon want many friends.
Po-e-yä 'eveng<ìl> n<ìy>ew tx<iv>an ay-eylan.
(Wasn't sure about the location of <iv>.)

1st: it is correct.
2nd: Oel fpamìl futa ngeyä pänu lamu eyawr

You need to write futa because the sentence would be: "I thought that your promise was correct" - in English we omit the "that" but in Na'vi it never happens.

3rd: Poeyä 'eveng nìyew txan (ay)eylanit.

You don't write the agentive because when the verb is "new" or it is intransitive, you only write the patientive. As the single verb in the sentence is "new" you don't use the <iv> infix.

[Tirea Aean]

Sorry for the double post, but I have new sentences

#1. He's looking at the two words.
Po-an<ìl> n<er>ìn me-lì'u<t>.

#2. I thought your promise was correct.
Oe<l> fp<am>ìl nge-yä pänu eyawr o<am>.
(I didn't know where to put the accusative suffix.)

#3. Her child will soon want many friends.
Po-e-yä 'eveng<ìl> n<ìy>ew tx<iv>an ay-eylan.
(Wasn't sure about the location of <iv>.)

#1. Good. just remember about the whole gender is optional and often left off for po thing. that said this is not grammatically wrong at all.
#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)
#3. Poe-yä 'eveng-ìl n<ìy>ew pxay-a (ay)-eylan-it.
(iv goes nowhere here. there is no verb after new that you could put it in. txan(adj) means much and is an amount like water or air. pxay(adj) is many, an unknown high number like cars in a city or something. ALSO, -l and -t, the agentive and patientive, are correctly used here because you are using new as just another transitive verb, not as a modal.)

[MIPP]

Sorry for the double post, but I have new sentences

#1. He's looking at the two words.
Po-an<ìl> n<er>ìn me-lì'u<t>.

#2. I thought your promise was correct.
Oe<l> fp<am>ìl nge-yä pänu eyawr o<am>.
(I didn't know where to put the accusative suffix.)

#3. Her child will soon want many friends.
Po-e-yä 'eveng<ìl> n<ìy>ew tx<iv>an ay-eylan.
(Wasn't sure about the location of <iv>.)

#1. Good. just remember about the whole gender is optional and often left off for po thing. that said this is not grammatically wrong at all.
#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)
#3.Poe-yä 'eveng-ìl n<ìy>ew pxay-a (ay)-eylan.
(iv goes nowhere here. there is no verb after new that you could put it in. txan(adj) means much and is an amount like water or air. pxay(adj) is many, an unknown high number like cars in a city or something.)

Ma Tirea, I read somewhere that a sentence with "new" takes no agentive marker, but only the patientive...

[Tirea Aean]

Sorry for the double post, but I have new sentences

#1. He's looking at the two words.
Po-an<ìl> n<er>ìn me-lì'u<t>.

#2. I thought your promise was correct.
Oe<l> fp<am>ìl nge-yä pänu eyawr o<am>.
(I didn't know where to put the accusative suffix.)

#3. Her child will soon want many friends.
Po-e-yä 'eveng<ìl> n<ìy>ew tx<iv>an ay-eylan.
(Wasn't sure about the location of <iv>.)

#1. Good. just remember about the whole gender is optional and often left off for po thing. that said this is not grammatically wrong at all.
#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)
#3.Poe-yä 'eveng-ìl n<ìy>ew pxay-a (ay)-eylan.
(iv goes nowhere here. there is no verb after new that you could put it in. txan(adj) means much and is an amount like water or air. pxay(adj) is many, an unknown high number like cars in a city or something.)

Ma Tirea, I read somewhere that a sentence with "new" takes no agentive marker, but only the patientive...

NO##

thats for when you use it as a MODAL. he is just using it as regular ol justlikeeveryother transitive verb...therefore both -l and -t are needed. both the agend and patiend are obvious and direct, with no second verb.

[MIPP]

Sorry for the double post, but I have new sentences

#1. He's looking at the two words.
Po-an<ìl> n<er>ìn me-lì'u<t>.

#2. I thought your promise was correct.
Oe<l> fp<am>ìl nge-yä pänu eyawr o<am>.
(I didn't know where to put the accusative suffix.)

#3. Her child will soon want many friends.
Po-e-yä 'eveng<ìl> n<ìy>ew tx<iv>an ay-eylan.
(Wasn't sure about the location of <iv>.)

#1. Good. just remember about the whole gender is optional and often left off for po thing. that said this is not grammatically wrong at all.
#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)
#3.Poe-yä 'eveng-ìl n<ìy>ew pxay-a (ay)-eylan.
(iv goes nowhere here. there is no verb after new that you could put it in. txan(adj) means much and is an amount like water or air. pxay(adj) is many, an unknown high number like cars in a city or something.)

Ma Tirea, I read somewhere that a sentence with "new" takes no agentive marker, but only the patientive...

NO##

thats for when you use it as a MODAL. he is just using it as regular ol justlikeeveryother transitive verb...therefore both -l and -t are needed. both the agend and patiend are obvious and direct, with no second verb.

Ok, I misunderstood it  Fìskxawngìri alu oerì, oeru txoa livu.

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Thank you again to you two! I'm really learning a lot.

I think I would only have one question:

#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)

What is actually patientive? I haven't learnt about it yet! I thought this sentence was accusative because in my head I did "I thought what? - That your promise was correct." So how is it patientive instead?

[MIPP]

Thank you again to you two! I'm really learning a lot.

I think I would only have one question:

#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)

What is actually patientive? I have never heard that word before! I thought this sentence was accusative because in my head I did "I thought what? - That your promise was correct." So how is it patientive instead?

Ergative = Agentive
Accusative = Patientive
Dative = Dative 

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Thank you again to you two! I'm really learning a lot.

I think I would only have one question:

#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)

What is actually patientive? I have never heard that word before! I thought this sentence was accusative because in my head I did "I thought what? - That your promise was correct." So how is it patientive instead?

Ergative = Agentive
Accusative = Patientive
Dative = Dative 

OHH! Now this is really good to know =D
Should I privilege one formulation rather than another?

[MIPP]

Thank you again to you two! I'm really learning a lot.

I think I would only have one question:

#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)

What is actually patientive? I have never heard that word before! I thought this sentence was accusative because in my head I did "I thought what? - That your promise was correct." So how is it patientive instead?

Ergative = Agentive
Accusative = Patientive
Dative = Dative 

OHH! Now this is really good to know =D
Should I privilege one formulation rather than another?

Frommer said that we must use agentive, patientive and dative 

[Tirea Aean]

Thank you again to you two! I'm really learning a lot.

I think I would only have one question:

#2. Oe-l fp<arm>ìl futa nge-yä pänu eyawr l<am>u.
(the patientive is the t in futa.)

What is actually patientive? I haven't learnt about it yet! I thought this sentence was accusative because in my head I did "I thought what? - That your promise was correct." So how is it patientive instead?

read the desc. PATIENTIVE haz officially replaced the term "accusative".

TERMS:

AGENTIVE: *replaced the term "ERGATIVE"* it is the subject of a trans verb, ie it is the -l suffix and its forms.
PATIENTIVE: *replaced the term "ACCUSATIVE"* it is the direct object of a transitive verb, ie it is the -t suffix and its forms.
DATIVE: terminology has not changed. it is the indirect object of a verb. ie the -ru suffix and its forms..
GENITIVE: termonology has not changed. it is the possessive. ie the -yä suffix and its forms.
TOPIC: terminology has not changed. it is -ri suffix and its forms.

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Great, thanks a lot.