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Offline Alaksi

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Various questions
« on: December 16, 2010, 09:41:05 am »
Kaltxì!
I have so many doubts that I decided to put them all together. :P

1. Inflections: How does the inflection -a- work? Why, how and what for is it used?

2. Is it compulsory to use me+ and pxe+ whenever you have two or three of something or is it possible to use just ay+ for all plurals?

3. What is an allomorph?

4.What's the difference between Ke and Rä'ä?
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Offline Ftxavanga Txe′lan

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 09:57:24 am »
Well, I can at least answer your first question. :)

The inflection -a- is used to mark adjectives. It always has to be connected to the adjective, whatever the order in which you put your words. Also, -a- must be on the side of the corresponding noun (not directed toward the exterior). Here is an example to help clarifying my weird and probably unclear explanation. :D

lor beautiful combined with tsmukan brother would give:
CORRECT lora tsmukan or tsmukan alor
INCORRECT alor tsmukan or tsmukan lora or tsmukana lor or lor atsmukan

There are, therefore, two correct formulas:
1) adjective + noun > adjective-a + noun
2) noun + adjective > noun + a-adjective

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 10:02:53 am »
2. Is it compulsory to use me+ and pxe+ whenever you have two or three of something or is it possible to use just ay+ for all plurals?

It seems compulsory.  For example, in the film Eytukan gives the order to tie up Jake and Grace with mefoti yìm bind (the two of) them.

Quote
3. What is an allomorph?

It's when a grammar affix (prefix, infix or suffix) has different shapes.  For example, the patientive ending can be either -ti, -it or -t, depending on the word it's attached to and the style choices of the speaker.  So, we say the patientive has three allomophs. (allo- = "other", morph = "shape")

Quote
4.What's the difference between Ke and Rä'ä?

Ke is the general negation.  Rä'ä is only used in negative commands, rä'ä hahaw set don't sleep now!
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2010, 01:29:36 pm »
Well, I can at least answer your first question. :)

The inflection -a- is used to mark adjectives. It always has to be connected to the adjective, whatever the order in which you put your words. Also, -a- must be on the side of the corresponding noun (not directed toward the exterior). Here is an example to help clarifying my weird and probably unclear explanation. :D

lor beautiful combined with tsmukan brother would give:
CORRECT lora tsmukan or tsmukan alor
INCORRECT alor tsmukan or tsmukan lora or tsmukana lor or lor atsmukan

There are, therefore, two correct formulas:
1) adjective + noun > adjective-a + noun
2) noun + adjective > noun + a-adjective

there are times when this -a- is NOT used. ex:

Taronyu fkew lu.

NOT

Taronyu afkew lu.

BUT you CAN do this:

Po taronyu afkew lu.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
at the end of the day, -a- is "THE MARKER OF ATTRIBUTION"

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Offline MIPP

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 02:17:24 pm »
Well, I can at least answer your first question. :)

The inflection -a- is used to mark adjectives. It always has to be connected to the adjective, whatever the order in which you put your words. Also, -a- must be on the side of the corresponding noun (not directed toward the exterior). Here is an example to help clarifying my weird and probably unclear explanation. :D

lor beautiful combined with tsmukan brother would give:
CORRECT lora tsmukan or tsmukan alor
INCORRECT alor tsmukan or tsmukan lora or tsmukana lor or lor atsmukan

There are, therefore, two correct formulas:
1) adjective + noun > adjective-a + noun
2) noun + adjective > noun + a-adjective

there are times when this -a- is NOT used. ex:

Taronyu fkew lu.

NOT

Taronyu afkew lu.

BUT you CAN do this:

Po taronyu afkew lu.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
at the end of the day, -a- is "THE MARKER OF ATTRIBUTION"

Also, if it is a le- adjective and the noun is before it, you don't need to write a-.

E.g.
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Offline Le'eylan

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 02:19:21 pm »
there are times when this -a- is NOT used. ex:

Taronyu fkew lu.

NOT

Taronyu afkew lu.

BUT you CAN do this:

Po taronyu afkew lu.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
at the end of the day, -a- is "THE MARKER OF ATTRIBUTION"

Yeah you have to choose between THE MAGICAL A or the boring lu
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Offline Alaksi

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 02:29:17 pm »
Ok, I think I understand it now.  ;D
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2010, 04:00:37 pm »
there are times when this -a- is NOT used. ex:

Taronyu fkew lu.

NOT

Taronyu afkew lu.

BUT you CAN do this:

Po taronyu afkew lu.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
at the end of the day, -a- is "THE MARKER OF ATTRIBUTION"

Yeah you have to choose between THE MAGICAL A or the boring lu

but its not always "USE -a- OR USE lu":

Po lu nawm-a taronyu. is an example of a sentence that has lu in it and also an -a-. tho generally that is a good thing to remember. -a- is for attributing something to something else.

it is NOT limited to adjectives. for example:

the guy whom i saw yesterday is a hunter.
tutan a oel tsole'a trram lu taronyu.

there is a freefloating a that attributes the phrase "oel tsole'a trram" to tho noun "tutan" in much the same way than if an adjective would be there instead of that phrase...if that makes sense. :)

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2010, 08:56:39 pm »
2. Is it compulsory to use me+ and pxe+ whenever you have two or three of something or is it possible to use just ay+ for all plurals?

It seems compulsory....

...at least when you know from some form of context if there was actually 2 or 3 of something.  If you don't, then just go with ay+, but otherwise, me+ and pxe+ are obligatory.

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2010, 09:58:04 pm »

there are times when this -a- is NOT used. ex:

Taronyu fkew lu.

NOT

Taronyu afkew lu.

BUT you CAN do this:

Po taronyu afkew lu.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
at the end of the day, -a- is "THE MARKER OF ATTRIBUTION"

Now, I am thoroughly confused. What is the difference between these two examples, and why is using -a- not appropiate on the first example? In both cases, fkew seems to function like an adjective, which it in fact, is.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2010, 10:12:18 pm »

Now, I am thoroughly confused. What is the difference between these two examples, and why is using -a- not appropiate on the first example? In both cases, fkew seems to function like an adjective, which it in fact, is.

it is. dont use -a- when u use lu. more examples:

po nama taronyu layu
tsataronyu nawm layu.

nounA adj-a nounB lu.

NounA adj lu.

those are the correct templates to work with.

perhaps putting this in english word order may help you...

nounA lu adj-a nounB.

NounA lu adj.

AND NOT:

nounA lu adj nounB

nounA lu a-adj.

with those rules in mind, revisit my previous post:


there are times when this -a- is NOT used. ex:

Taronyu fkew lu.

NOT

Taronyu afkew lu.

BUT you CAN do this:

Po taronyu afkew lu.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
at the end of the day, -a- is "THE MARKER OF ATTRIBUTION"

i hope that helps. :)

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Offline Alaksi

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 05:49:40 am »
Let's see if I got this right. :-\
So, if I say:

Oe sìltsana reltseotu lu.
I am a good artist.

Then I have to use -a- because there is more than one noun, and it's necessary to indicate that sìltsan goes with reltseotu?

But if I say:

Ayikran win lu.
Ikrans are fast.

It's not necessary to write -a- because win can't go with anything else?
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Offline MIPP

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2010, 06:06:17 am »
Let's see if I got this right. :-\
So, if I say:

Oe sìltsana reltseotu lu.
I am a good artist.

Then I have to use -a- because there is more than one noun, and it's necessary to indicate that sìltsan goes with reltseotu?

But if I say:

Ayikran win lu.
Ikrans are fast.

It's not necessary to write -a- because win can't go with anything else?

I think the first example is wrong. When you write lu you don't use -a-.
In Na'vi, adjectives are like verbs... This is, if you write:

Wina ikran, what you are saying is: The Ikran that fasts - It is wrong in English.
Reltseotu asìltsan, I think that what you are really saying is: The artist that goods - it is wrong in English.

I mean, this is my opinion, it is not confirmed by Paul Frommer and it is probably wrong. But, what is important: everytime you say Name LU adjective, you have no need to write -a-.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2010, 06:19:06 am »
Let's see if I got this right. :-\
So, if I say:

Oe sìltsana reltseotu lu.
I am a good artist.

Then I have to use -a- because there is more than one noun, and it's necessary to indicate that sìltsan goes with reltseotu?

But if I say:

Ayikran win lu.
Ikrans are fast.

It's not necessary to write -a- because win can't go with anything else?

I think the first example is wrong. When you write lu you don't use -a-.
In Na'vi, adjectives are like verbs... This is, if you write:

Wina ikran, what you are saying is: The Ikran that fasts - It is wrong in English.
Reltseotu asìltsan, I think that what you are really saying is: The artist that goods - it is wrong in English.

I mean, this is my opinion, it is not confirmed by Paul Frommer and it is probably wrong. But, what is important: everytime you say Name LU adjective, you have no need to write -a-.

No, the first is correct.

The difference is between attributive and predicative adjectives. Attributive adjectives describe a noun directly without any other verb being used in that description whilst predicative adjectives function a bit like the object of a verb which they use to describe.

In "oe sìltsana reltseotu lu", -a- is needed because sìltsan is an attributive adjective that, instead of describing "oe", describes "reltseotu" and doesn't use a verb to do so, the lu doesn't see the adjective in this case and is instead linking oe and reltseotu.

In the second example, "ayikran win lu" the adjective is describing the noun indirectly and uses a verb so it doesn't take -a-.

Lastly, your description of how adjectives work in na'vi is slightly off ma MIPP (although very close), instead of functioning like verbs, adjectives (apart from the ones that are also stative verbs) function, when used attributively, as if there is a little "lu" that's been dropped e.g.:

lu oe reltseotu asìltsan = lu oe reltseotu a (lu) sìltsan (I've played with the word order a bit to make the point clearer)
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Offline MIPP

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2010, 07:28:18 am »
Let's see if I got this right. :-\
So, if I say:

Oe sìltsana reltseotu lu.
I am a good artist.

Then I have to use -a- because there is more than one noun, and it's necessary to indicate that sìltsan goes with reltseotu?

But if I say:

Ayikran win lu.
Ikrans are fast.

It's not necessary to write -a- because win can't go with anything else?

I think the first example is wrong. When you write lu you don't use -a-.
In Na'vi, adjectives are like verbs... This is, if you write:

Wina ikran, what you are saying is: The Ikran that fasts - It is wrong in English.
Reltseotu asìltsan, I think that what you are really saying is: The artist that goods - it is wrong in English.

I mean, this is my opinion, it is not confirmed by Paul Frommer and it is probably wrong. But, what is important: everytime you say Name LU adjective, you have no need to write -a-.

No, the first is correct.

The difference is between attributive and predicative adjectives. Attributive adjectives describe a noun directly without any other verb being used in that description whilst predicative adjectives function a bit like the object of a verb which they use to describe.

In "oe sìltsana reltseotu lu", -a- is needed because sìltsan is an attributive adjective that, instead of describing "oe", describes "reltseotu" and doesn't use a verb to do so, the lu doesn't see the adjective in this case and is instead linking oe and reltseotu.

In the second example, "ayikran win lu" the adjective is describing the noun indirectly and uses a verb so it doesn't take -a-.

Lastly, your description of how adjectives work in na'vi is slightly off ma MIPP (although very close), instead of functioning like verbs, adjectives (apart from the ones that are also stative verbs) function, when used attributively, as if there is a little "lu" that's been dropped e.g.:

lu oe reltseotu asìltsan = lu oe reltseotu a (lu) sìltsan (I've played with the word order a bit to make the point clearer)

Ok then, I see. My fault, I'm sorry ma Kewnya sì Alaksi.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2010, 07:44:50 am »
No need to apologise ma MIPP, we only learn by making mistakes. :)
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Re: Various questions
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 04:24:07 am »
This discussion has made it quite clear how this is supposed to work. Irayo nang

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2010, 10:31:24 pm »
Hey, the -a- is used to create noun phrase

this is correct
Taronyu fkew lu.
The hunter is mighty.

but this also, only meaning changed
Taronyu afkew lu. (Lu taronyu afkew.)
There is a mighty hunter.

compare with this
Lu taronyu.
There is a hunter.




This is what I got before, is there any mistake?
Actually is it a must to put lu in the front to make there be ... sentences?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 10:35:19 pm by Ikran Ahiyìk »
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Various questions
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 04:00:04 am »
Hey, the -a- is used to create noun phrase

this is correct
Taronyu fkew lu.
The hunter is mighty.

but this also, only meaning changed
Taronyu afkew lu. (Lu taronyu afkew.)
There is a mighty hunter.

compare with this
Lu taronyu.
There is a hunter.




This is what I got before, is there any mistake?
Actually is it a must to put lu in the front to make there be ... sentences?

That's all correct, and, as far as I know, word order in "there is/are" sentences is just as free as most others in na'vi.
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Re: Various questions
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 am »
Hey, the -a- is used to create noun phrase

this is correct
Taronyu fkew lu.
The hunter is mighty.

but this also, only meaning changed
Taronyu afkew lu. (Lu taronyu afkew.)
There is a mighty hunter.

compare with this
Lu taronyu.
There is a hunter.




This is what I got before, is there any mistake?
Actually is it a must to put lu in the front to make there be ... sentences?

That's all correct, and, as far as I know, word order in "there is/are" sentences is just as free as most others in na'vi.

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?

  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

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