Various questions

Started by Alaksi, December 16, 2010, 09:41:05 AM

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MIPP

Quote from: Blue Spirit on December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 AM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on December 20, 2010, 04:00:04 AM
Quote from: Ikran Ahiyìk on December 19, 2010, 10:31:24 PM
Hey, the -a- is used to create noun phrase

this is correct
Taronyu fkew lu.
The hunter is mighty.

but this also, only meaning changed
Taronyu afkew lu. (Lu taronyu afkew.)
There is a mighty hunter.

compare with this
Lu taronyu.
There is a hunter.




This is what I got before, is there any mistake?
Actually is it a must to put lu in the front to make there be ... sentences?

That's all correct, and, as far as I know, word order in "there is/are" sentences is just as free as most others in na'vi.

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?


  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

Ok, I am officially confused.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

kewnya txamew'itan

Indeed, it is confusing but, as the number of exceptions to the "rules" grows, the more like a natural language this appears.
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Tirea Aean

Quote from: MIPP on December 20, 2010, 07:42:33 AM
Quote from: Blue Spirit on December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 AM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on December 20, 2010, 04:00:04 AM
Quote from: Ikran Ahiyìk on December 19, 2010, 10:31:24 PM
Hey, the -a- is used to create noun phrase

this is correct
Taronyu fkew lu.
The hunter is mighty.

but this also, only meaning changed
Taronyu afkew lu. (Lu taronyu afkew.)
There is a mighty hunter.

compare with this
Lu taronyu.
There is a hunter.




This is what I got before, is there any mistake?
Actually is it a must to put lu in the front to make there be ... sentences?

That's all correct, and, as far as I know, word order in "there is/are" sentences is just as free as most others in na'vi.

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?


  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

Ok, I am officially confused.


like i said...

MIPP

I understand the second and I think I understand the 1st now, but the third to me makes no sense (I am probably wrong).
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: MIPP on December 20, 2010, 08:12:10 AM
I understand the second and I think I understand the 1st now, but the third to me makes no sense (I am probably wrong).

yeah. that third one comes from this guy:

Quote from: Ikran Ahiyìk on December 19, 2010, 10:31:24 PM
Hey, the -a- is used to create noun phrase

this is correct
Taronyu fkew lu.
The hunter is mighty.

but this also, only meaning changed
Taronyu afkew lu. (Lu taronyu afkew.)
There is a mighty hunter.

compare with this
Lu taronyu.
There is a hunter.




This is what I got before, is there any mistake?
Actually is it a must to put lu in the front to make there be ... sentences?

and Kewnya said he was right.

Carborundum

Something smells seriously fishy here...

*Taronyu afkew lu is homophonous with taronyu a fkew lu, which leads me to suspect that the former is in fact not correct.
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wm.annis

#26
Quote from: Carborundum on December 20, 2010, 08:31:02 AM
Something smells seriously fishy here...

*Taronyu afkew lu is homophonous with taronyu a fkew lu, which leads me to suspect that the former is in fact not correct.

Why is everyone so terrified of homophony?  Down with homophonophobia!

Taronyu afkew lu is perfectly fine.  I can conceive of no natural conversation or narrative where it could be confusable with taronyu a fkew lu.

Sireayä mokri

Quote from: wm.annis on December 20, 2010, 09:08:08 AM
Why is everyone so terrified of homophony?  Down with homophonophobia!
Taronyu afkew lu is perfectly fine.

Totally agree, I use constructions like sìltsana säfpìl leiu pretty often and I like this :)
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Carborundum

Homophony = unscary. Got it.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

MIPP

Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Kì’onga Vul

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 AM

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?


  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

By contradictory, do you mean that the two points are mutually exclusive, that by following one you seem to break the other?  (Though you aren't actually breaking it because your intended meaning is different.)  I'm trying to think of a case where the two rules really would be contradictory, where you don't just seem to break one, but actually have to.

I can only think of ambiguous cases like the one below, which is both homophonic and homographic (if that's a word). 
Ram apxa lu.

Of course, context would imply the correct meaning.  Unless, perhaps, it was the first line of a poem or something.  (Ram apxa lu.  Tsamì ewll lu...)
學而時習之!
Did I make an error you just can't stand to let survive?  Please, correct me!  I'll give you candy or something.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Kì'onga Vul on December 20, 2010, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 AM

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?


  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

By contradictory, do you mean that the two points are mutually exclusive, that by following one you seem to break the other?  (Though you aren't actually breaking it because your intended meaning is different.)  I'm trying to think of a case where the two rules really would be contradictory, where you don't just seem to break one, but actually have to.

I can only think of ambiguous cases like the one below, which is both homophonic and homographic (if that's a word). 
Ram apxa lu.

Of course, context would imply the correct meaning.  Unless, perhaps, it was the first line of a poem or something.  (Ram apxa lu.  Tsamì ewll lu...)

I was saying that they would SEEM to be contradictory, causing confusion. but upon further study and application you will find that it makes sense.

Kì’onga Vul

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 20, 2010, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: Kì'onga Vul on December 20, 2010, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 AM

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?


  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

By contradictory, do you mean that the two points are mutually exclusive, that by following one you seem to break the other?  (Though you aren't actually breaking it because your intended meaning is different.)  I'm trying to think of a case where the two rules really would be contradictory, where you don't just seem to break one, but actually have to.

I can only think of ambiguous cases like the one below, which is both homophonic and homographic (if that's a word). 
Ram apxa lu.

Of course, context would imply the correct meaning.  Unless, perhaps, it was the first line of a poem or something.  (Ram apxa lu.  Tsamì ewll lu...)

I was saying that they would SEEM to be contradictory, causing confusion. but upon further study and application you will find that it makes sense.

Oh, I though you meant it like "There seems to be a problem with the computer" or "There seems to be a mutant arachnid breaking into our house."

Anyway, I think we were agreeing all along!
學而時習之!
Did I make an error you just can't stand to let survive?  Please, correct me!  I'll give you candy or something.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Kì'onga Vul on December 20, 2010, 06:19:40 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 20, 2010, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: Kì'onga Vul on December 20, 2010, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 20, 2010, 07:35:32 AM

Interesting...i always thought it wrong to use -a- when directly using lu... but i didnt take into accound "there is a {}" type things... thats really gonna confuse some people as if the fact that 'you arent supposed to use -a- when using lu half the time' already doesnt... hmmm now we need to rewrite the rules of -a-?


  • use -a- when attributing an adjective to a noun that is the subject or object of a sentence.
  • -a- is NOT to be used if the adjective is the predicate of the sentence, that is basically if you are setting a noun equal to an adj by using lu
  • -a- CAN still be used directly with lu if and only if your intended meaning for lu in such case is "there is"

see, the later two points seem to be contradictory at some level. which may confuse some people...

By contradictory, do you mean that the two points are mutually exclusive, that by following one you seem to break the other?  (Though you aren't actually breaking it because your intended meaning is different.)  I'm trying to think of a case where the two rules really would be contradictory, where you don't just seem to break one, but actually have to.

I can only think of ambiguous cases like the one below, which is both homophonic and homographic (if that's a word). 
Ram apxa lu.

Of course, context would imply the correct meaning.  Unless, perhaps, it was the first line of a poem or something.  (Ram apxa lu.  Tsamì ewll lu...)

I was saying that they would SEEM to be contradictory, causing confusion. but upon further study and application you will find that it makes sense.

Oh, I though you meant it like "There seems to be a problem with the computer" or "There seems to be a mutant arachnid breaking into our house."

Anyway, I think we were agreeing all along!

yeah hrh sorry about that! Im very good at being unclear. :P

Alaksi

Irayo for the explanation! I almost understand it now  ;D
But I have another question:
Does -a- cause lenition?
For example, if I want to say "strong person", which of these would be correct?:

Tute atxur
or
Tute atur
If I make any mistakes, either in English (I'm not a native speaker) or in Na'vi, please correct them, either in my posts or sending a PM.
Irayo!

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MIPP

Quote from: Alaksi on December 24, 2010, 05:32:21 AM
Irayo for the explanation! I almost understand it now  ;D
But I have another question:
Does -a- cause lenition?
For example, if I want to say "strong person", which of these would be correct?:

Tute atxur
or
Tute atur

-a- does not cause lenition, so the correct one would be the first :) Prefixes that cause lenition have a + and those that don't, have a -
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Ikran Ahiyìk

It is impossible to have lention on the second word if the form is "Noun a-adj" ...

Ìlä sute atxur :)
Ìlä tura tute ;)
Tute ìlä a-txur ... ?? :P
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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MIPP

Quote from: Ikran Ahiyìk on December 24, 2010, 05:56:59 AM
It is impossible to have lention on the second word if the form is "Noun a-adj" ...

Ìlä sute atxur :)
Ìlä tura tute ;)
Tute ìlä a-txur ... ?? :P

That's interesting, indeed.
But you can say Tuteilä atxur so that it is not ambiguous.



Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Ikran Ahiyìk

Then it doesn't cause any lenition..
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Yayo

Quote from: Ftxavanga Txe′lan on December 16, 2010, 09:57:24 AM

lor beautiful combined with tsmukan brother would give:
CORRECT lora tsmukan or tsmukan alor
INCORRECT alor tsmukan or tsmukan lora or tsmukana lor or lor atsmukan

There are, therefore, two correct formulas:
1) adjective + noun > adjective-a + noun
2) noun + adjective > noun + a-adjective

You must remember that lor is used to describe only objects, not people. This is a very common error. Sevin is used to express "beauty/beautiful" for a person.


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