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Started by MIPP, August 19, 2010, 05:26:23 AM

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MIPP

Hey there!

A few days ago I was reading the wikipedia in Portuguese, and I found an interesting thing about diphthongs. Looks like in Portuguese, there are "growing diphtongs" (I don't know the word in English, I'm sorry), which are diphthongs, but reversed. E.g. A normal diphthong would be: "ay" or "aw", and a growing one would be "wa" or "ya". You know what I mean, right? So, I checked the Na'vi dictionary and I noticed something: Y and W are always in diphtongs: either the normal ones (aw, ay, ew, ey) or reversed (ya, yo, wi, etc).

I'm putting it here because I don't know if anyone has ever noticed it...
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

bommel

hmm.. interesting, didn't know that before. Though I'm not that familiar with all the language theory stuff ;)

Tängal

I think it's not the right way to call it. Diphthongs behave like single vowel. Take for instance Russian. They have  я(ya), ю(yu), е(ye) and ё(yo). And that behave like a vowel. But here? Take for instance word eyaye.
Is it e – ya – ye or ey – a – ye or ey – ay – e or what?

Actually it may look like that but I don't think it is a diphthong ;)

ngima tstal, pxia tstal
frusìpa fngap na nantang

MIPP

Quote from: Tängal on August 19, 2010, 09:43:51 AM
I think it's not the right way to call it. Diphthongs behave like single vowel. Take for instance Russian. They have  я(ya), ю(yu), е(ye) and ё(yo). And that behave like a vowel. But here? Take for instance word eyaye.
Is it e – ya – ye or ey – a – ye or ey – ay – e or what?

Actually it may look like that but I don't think it is a diphthong ;)

Well, in portuguese it is called as a "Ditongo Crescente Oral", which literally means "Oral growing diphtong". Here is the link: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonologia_da_l%C3%ADngua_portuguesa. Use CTRL+F to find the text:
QuoteDitongos crescentes orais
/wa/   /ˈkwatɾu/   quatro   
/we/   /lĩˈgwetɐ/   lingueta   
/wi/   /lĩˈgwisɐ/   linguiça   
/wo/   /ɐˈkwozu/   aquoso   
/wɔ/   /ɐˈkwɔzɐ/   aquosa   

You may translate it using a translator... But what matters here is not if "yo" is a diphtong (for example), but that y and w always are with other vowels, after or before.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

kewnya txamew'itan

As far as I understand it, it just comes down to how you analyse na'vi. If you want you can say that there are 11 diphthongs in na'vi or you can say that there are 4 and 2 approximants (which cannot end syllables), both are different analyses of the same thing.

so analysing swok as containing a rising diphthong wo is certainly not wrong, but it is arguably more helpful to anlayse it as an approximant and monophthong because otherwise you have to allow triphthongs into na'vi and that confuses the phonological inventory a lot more than analysing na'vi as only having falling diphthongs.
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omängum fra'uti

Na'vi phonotactics tells us that w and y always follow a vowel as a diphthong, or come immediately before alone or as the second part of a consonant cluster.  That does not necessarily make it a diphthong - though in fast speech i think most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

MIPP

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on August 19, 2010, 10:43:15 AM
Na'vi phonotactics tells us that w and y always follow a vowel as a diphthong, or come immediately before alone or as the second part of a consonant cluster.  That does not necessarily make it a diphthong - though in fast speech i think most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

I know, and I understand, but what I'm asking is if someone has already noticed that Y and W are only together with other vowels...
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tängal

#7
Quote from: MIPP on August 19, 2010, 10:45:18 AM
I know, and I understand, but what I'm asking is if someone has already noticed that Y and W are only together with other vowels...

Generally only f, ts and s may be not close to vowel, because that are the only consonants that can come with another consonant.

Sorry, I don't really get your point  :-[

EDIT:
I checked the English version of this article about Portuguese you gave a link to and there they call it "rising diphthongs". It is also said there:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Diphthongs are not considered independent phonemes in Portuguese, but knowing them can help with spelling and pronunciation.
In Na'vi "standard" diphthongs are considered as independent phonemes while ya or wa would be possible only if before would be f, ts or s, because neither y nor w can appear in the beginning.

See the word taw. Normally w cannot end a syllable but here is a part of diphthong.

ngima tstal, pxia tstal
frusìpa fngap na nantang

MIPP

Quote from: Tängal on August 19, 2010, 11:18:34 AM
Quote from: MIPP on August 19, 2010, 10:45:18 AM
I know, and I understand, but what I'm asking is if someone has already noticed that Y and W are only together with other vowels...

Generally only f, ts and s may be not close to vowel, because that are the only consonants that can come with another consonant.

Sorry, I don't really get your point  :-[

Sorry, I might have written it wrongly. What I mean is: I searched in the dictionary, and I noticed that Y and W are ALWAYS close to another vowel. NEVER close to a consonant (at least I haven't seen any). We already knew that:
Quotell and rr can only come at the end of a syllable beginning with a
single consonant. No consonant can follow it and be part of the same syllable. So, trr day is
one syllable and allowed; but lrrtok smile would be two syllables lrr.tok, not lrrt.ok, and
something like trrm or tspll could not be words.
Quotef, h, ts, s, v, z can only be at the beginning of a syllable. So a word
like yuf is not possible.
QuoteOnly f, ts, and s can appear with other consonants. So words like
fmetok to test and sngel garbage are allowed, whereas a word starting with "pr" would be
forbidden.
QuoteOnly the following consonants may end a syllable: px, tx, kx, p, t,
k, ', m, n, ng, r, and l.

But... did we knew that Y and W always come together with a vowel?
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tängal

Quote from: MIPP on August 19, 2010, 11:25:12 AM
But... did we knew that Y and W always come together with a vowel?
I didn't notice that. They cannot neither start nor end a syllable. They can only be in the middle.

ngima tstal, pxia tstal
frusìpa fngap na nantang

MIPP

Quote from: Tängal on August 19, 2010, 11:42:55 AM
Quote from: MIPP on August 19, 2010, 11:25:12 AM
But... did we knew that Y and W always come together with a vowel?
I didn't notice that. They cannot neither start nor end a syllable. They can only be in the middle.

I'm note sure it's true, we have yom and many other words.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tängal

I took it from "Na'vi in a Nutshell". You're right. There are words like yom or yìm and according to what is written there are not possible. I think I will check in other sources and write a PM about that to NeotrekkerZ.

ngima tstal, pxia tstal
frusìpa fngap na nantang

MIPP

Quote from: Tängal on August 19, 2010, 11:58:07 AM
I took it from "Na'vi in a Nutshell". You're right. There are words like yom or yìm and according to what is written there are not possible. I think I will check in other sources and write a PM about that to NeotrekkerZ.

Yes.
But what I think I found is that Y and W can only be close to vowels.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tängal

Well, my fault. I just misunderstood that :(

ngima tstal, pxia tstal
frusìpa fngap na nantang

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: MIPP on August 19, 2010, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on August 19, 2010, 10:43:15 AM
Na'vi phonotactics tells us that w and y always follow a vowel as a diphthong, or come immediately before alone or as the second part of a consonant cluster.  That does not necessarily make it a diphthong - though in fast speech i think most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

I know, and I understand, but what I'm asking is if someone has already noticed that Y and W are only together with other vowels...
But that's what I just said, that the rules of Na'vi sounds say exactly that - that W and Y must be either right before or right after a vowel.  They are all like that because that is all that Na'vi allows for sounds.  If there is more than one consonant before a vowel, W or Y can only be the second (As in "fwa") never the first.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Taronyu

Most of this has already been covered. Refer to This thread.