Author Topic: Bible in Na'vi  (Read 55270 times)

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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2010, 03:02:41 pm »
Hmm, you sure this is the same ì as in Na'vi? If so, you did me a big favor correcting me. I thought it was like i, just shorter. but it's more like another vowel. Somehow similar to German e. Now I wonder, what Na'vi e sounds like...

Yawä ngahu
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 03:26:46 pm »
Hmm, you sure this is the same ì as in Na'vi? If so, you did me a big favor correcting me. I thought it was like i, just shorter. but it's more like another vowel. Somehow similar to German e. Now I wonder, what Na'vi e sounds like...

Yawä ngahu

I am reasonably certain of the ì sound, and it being a separate vowel, but it could appear in amorphous of the i vowel sound in some words and in-fixes in some of the analysis made of the vocabulary from Paul Frommer...  But, I reserve the right to be wrong at any point in the future.

Editing to add the Na'vi E, O, U sounds.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 03:38:46 pm by Txur’Itan »
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Offline Col Quaritch

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2010, 03:43:52 pm »
I suspect this is going to be one heck of a long project, why cuase I stink at my own language LOL and I'm trying to learn a new one on top. So as promises or threaten depending on how you take it, here is book of John chapter 1 verse 1-5. What I couldnt figure out for Navi or find I simply left in english this is copied from King James Version translation. Let the learning and correcting and fun begain :)

John 1:1-5 Mì the sngä'ikr was the Lì’u, sì the Lì’u was with Yawä, sì the Lì’u was Yawä.
The same was mì the sngä'ikr with Yawä.
Nìwotx fra'u were made ìlä him; sì without him was ke anything made tsakem was made.
Mì him was tìrey; sì the tìrey was the atan of men.
Sì the atan shines mì darkness; sì the darkness comprehended it ke.

Now for some great what if to toss out there, Imagine this all being done and say having someone like Zoe or any of the other cast of Avatar doing audio version of the Bible in Navi.  ;D (now returning to reality)


Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2010, 04:03:39 pm »
I suspect this is going to be one heck of a long project, why cuase I stink at my own language LOL and I'm trying to learn a new one on top. So as promises or threaten depending on how you take it, here is book of John chapter 1 verse 1-5. What I couldnt figure out for Navi or find I simply left in english this is copied from King James Version translation. Let the learning and correcting and fun begain :)

John 1:1-5 Mì the sngä'ikr was the Lì’u, sì the Lì’u was with Yawä, sì the Lì’u was Yawä.
The same was mì the sngä'ikr with Yawä.
Nìwotx fra'u were made ìlä him; sì without him was ke anything made tsakem was made.
Mì him was tìrey; sì the tìrey was the atan of men.
Sì the atan shines mì darkness; sì the darkness comprehended it ke.

Now for some great what if to toss out there, Imagine this all being done and say having someone like Zoe or any of the other cast of Avatar doing audio version of the Bible in Navi.  ;D (now returning to reality)

I imagine that she could read it.  But there would be some basic concepts that would be alien to her, they might not be comprehensible.

Maybe similar to the way the Pirahã think about spirits.
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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2010, 05:56:29 pm »
Quote from: Txur'Itan
I am reasonably certain of the ì sound, and it being a separate vowel, but it could appear in amorphous of the i vowel sound in some words and in-fixes in some of the analysis made of the vocabulary from Paul Frommer...  But, I reserve the right to be wrong at any point in the future.
Never ment to question you, you certainly know it better than I do ;) It was more like surprise. I used some German documents getting into the pronounciation, but that seems to be wrong at some point (or I didn't get it right, I even forgot where I got it from, so I can't even see whom to contact for corrections...).
Seems to be this is like Korean ㅐ and ㅔ, I could never tell them apart as well. Here I can distinguish ì, but not tell e from ä... Life ain't no drive throu, can't always order... ;D

Quote from: Col Quaritch
I suspect this is going to be one heck of a long project, why cuase I stink at my own language LOL and I'm trying to learn a new one on top.
Time won't matter, we have all eternity ;) Actually I never understood my own langage before I studied latin... This as a precaution, in the German forums they already told me I latinize my Na'vi...

Quote from: Txur'Itan
But there would be some basic concepts that would be alien to her, they might not be comprehensible.
I guess he meant RL Zoe, not Pandora Neytiri ;)

Quote
Mì the sngä'ikr was the Lì’u
I think you can leave out the first "the": mì sngä'ikrr... (two r by the way ;))
was would be lamu, I guess: lu (=to be) + <am> infix, indicating far past. You could also add the Infix for Imperfect, which would be <er> standing alone, but <arm> when combined with <am>, indicating imperfect aspect, i.e. focus on the duration of the happening, not the happening as such (I hope I am right on that).
For the "the" before "lì'u" I only see the possibilities:
a) leave it out -> IN beginning was word, lì'u becoming something like a name of itself in some respect.
b) fìpo: this one thing, but maybe you'd have to leave out "word" then, not sure though.
c) fko: one, it; I don't know if this goes with another noun...?
d) what I said before: Yawäyä lì'u: God's word...

Any other ideas?

Quote
sì the Lì’u was with Yawä
Okay, I already said what I thought on "the" and "was"... you have to replace sì with ulte. sì is to combine words, like "me and you", ulte is to combine sentences, like "you read the bible and I wrote my sermon".

Quote
sì the Lì’u was Yawä
same as above. I just think how it would puzzle the Na'vi, in case you use Lí'u Yawäyä to circumvent the problem with not having an article, to first tell them about the word of God and then telling them this same word was the same God... I guess this part of trinity would come out cleareer here than in the original then...

Quote
Nìwotx fra'u were made ìlä him
I like how you combine nìwotx and fra'u. While King James says, everything was made by him you say: everything was completely made by him, making that point more than clear. I like that.
Background: nìwotx does not describe things, rather verbs, like "to make". It turns "to make" into "to make completely". On the other hand, fra goes with nouns, turning 'u (thing) into fra'u (every thing).

We ran into a certain problem here: There is no passive in Na'vi, or at least, we don't know how to build it yet. So you cannot (yet) say "was made", only "made". So you have to turn things around, like saying he made everything, rather than saying everything was made by him.

I see another possibility, which would be a bit freer: He caused everything to becomethough I am not sure whether one can use the verb "to become" in that way, either English or Na'vi. I just write down my idea and somebody who knows Na'vi better say whether it's correct or not:

He (=po + ergative marker <l>) caused (infix <eyk>) everything (fra'u; If I understand right, one has to add dative marker here, so +<r{u}>) to become (slu) [completely/in toto=nìwotx].

pol sleyku fra'uru nìwotx

I am absolutely uncertain whether this might be right. I'm eager to hear your opinion (I just realize, one might have to add tense infix as well)

Maybe one needs to say rather: He caused everything to come into existence, leaving us with the problem, how to translate existence...

Or the easy way: He made (=produce) everything: Pol sleyku fra'ut nìwotx
Wait, the same! Almost, maybe I was wrong with the whole dative stuff. Okay, I guess the last example is right, but I leave the first so somebody who understands this constrct can tell me when to use dative with <eyk>.

Quote
sì without him was ke anything made tsakem was made.
sì: look above.
without=luke -> without him: "po luke" or "luke po"
But the whole sentence is also in passive (made by rather than made), so we have to turn things around again: No thing exists that which he did not make.
There is no exist, one has to work with "to be" and "produce"

ke'ul lu slawnoleykut a pol ke sleykarmu.

No thing is produced (infixes <awn> for participle passive and <ol> for perfect aspect) that he did not produce (infixes <am> for far past and <er> for imperfect aspect -> <arm>). I wonder, guess one could use here perfect aspect as well...
Tell me if I'm making mistakes, I am kinda unsure about much of this, but think it should go that way roughly.

Quote
Mì him was tìrey; sì the tìrey was the atan of men.
Mìfo (= mì + po=he) larmu tìrey; ulte fì tìrey larm atan frapoyä (fra+po+GEN-marker yä).

There is no word for man in Na'vi, and speaking to aliens this could confuse things, as man could refer to human alone, so I think: "This life was everyone's light" is a good approximation.

Quote
Sì the atan shines mì darkness
asides from grammar and vocabulary: I just wonder if it is a good idea to translate light with light and darkness with darkness. Those words transport menaing, but I guess, for Na'vi, who can see well in the dark, darkness can hardly be connected with evil, as is the meaning of the text as I think. If we drop darkness, we also have to think about what to do with light. I am not sure here, but I think it must be spoken of.

As there is no word for darkness, I guess we would need keatan. That opens new posibilities: Now darkness can be used I think. Because no light could mean no light at all, not even to the Na'vi's eyes. And as they are not used to not see, even in darkness, this could be an even more dangerous image for them...

Maybe one could use fight instead of shine here: Light fighting off darkness... there is no word for shine, and atan atan si is stupid, if you ask me 8)

ulte atanìl wem keatanìt

Quote
sì the darkness comprehended it ke.
For comprehend one cold use "kame", like seeing in a spiritual sense. Let me make a proposal for an alternative, please. I know we agreed on KJV, so if you say no to it, it's okay, but I come from a different background and comprehend seems strange to me.
Luther translated it with: get hold/grip/take, more in that sense. So darkness does not conquer light, does not get it under control. One might also get a similar idea with comprehend, and this is certainly why it went that way in King James, bt as we are reduced to a certain amount of vocabulary in Na'vi, for me it seems like:

kame - understand, see through. I have a feeling that darkness does not even intend to understand light in a theological way, it wants to consme it, control it, extinguish it. That's why I want to propose using "nekx" (=consume) here instead of kame.

ulte keatanìl ke nolekx pot
and nonlight has not consumed it.


I hope I did not appear too teacherly. I am unsre of many things myself, I just want to bring full attention to the translation, and I think, better mention an idea too much than too few. ::)

Please tell me where I'm wrong and ask where you don't understand me.

Yawä ngahu
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 05:58:46 pm by Tìmuiäyä'itan »
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline TesterScot

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2010, 05:58:51 pm »
Sure you can ;D That's what I made it for. The pic is freely available in the net, so you don't need to copy. All you have to do is get this:
--SNIP--
into your signature. That'll put the picture and add the link to this thread, at least it should (works for me).

Yawä ngahu

Ta much! I've grabbed it too.  :D



Irayoru 'Awve Tìkameie for the profile pic. Go to http://www.mpandoraln.weebly.com to see his ongoing work.
Brand New Learner - please correct my usage 8-)

Offline TesterScot

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 06:01:26 pm »
Yea, I have yet to hear from TesterScott on the matter but I feel Yawä is our best choice for God at this time. So thats one hurdle out of the way. I agree with you Timuiaya as many other speaking languages we can get on this project by far the beter im sure. I just feel so blessed with the two of you I have now :)
-snip-

Yeah, I agree on the use of Yawä.
And on getting as many non-english-native-language-speakers as possible.



Irayoru 'Awve Tìkameie for the profile pic. Go to http://www.mpandoraln.weebly.com to see his ongoing work.
Brand New Learner - please correct my usage 8-)

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 06:05:49 pm »
Quote
Ta much! I've grabbed it too.
Great, so I didn't waste the time making it (making it wasn't the problem, dealing with the hosting server was the thing...)

Quote
And on getting as many non-english-native-language-speakers as possible.
Any ideas how and where to collect them?

Yawä ngahu
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline riftmaster

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2010, 07:08:25 pm »
What an amazing project! My na'vi is terrible but good luck anyway!!!
 :)




Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2010, 07:13:02 pm »
Jump on, you can only learn.
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2010, 07:35:38 pm »
Ok, Rough Sketch here.  All things in writing like this need edits.  But, I snagged on some vocab that might be able to help.

John 1:1-5

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.



5. Ulte, penghrrapa     atanìri   a     fpi             ke  txon  
5. AND,  sunshine-ATT-> light-TOP which for.the.sake.of not night

5b. ulte vrrtepa      txonit     ke kiyevame.
5b. and  deamon-ATT-> night-ACC not See(spiritual)-FUT.SUBJV

6. Lu Poanru  tstxo san Tson,
6. Be him-DAT name      John,

6b. ulte kä tsatsengur     teri       Yawäl   folpe' poti fpi             Yawäyä  atanìri.
6b. and  go that.place-DAT concerning God-ERG sent   him  for.the.sake.of God-GEN light-TOP.

7. Tsonil   kä tsatsengur     poanil kievameie,              fpi             Tsonil   atanit    Kameie,
7. John-ACC go that.place-DAT he-ERG See(spiritual)-FUT.SBJV for.the.sake.of John-ERG light-ACC See(spiritual)-LAUD

7b. fte     frapo    speykiyevaw           tengfya     Tsonil   spayaw.
7b. so.that everyone believe-CAUS-FUT.SBJV same.way.as John-ERG believe-FUT.

8. Tsonil   ke  släpimvu                  atanur,    
8. John-ERG not become-REFLEXIVE-PST.SBJV light-DAT,

8b. slä Yawäl   folpe' poanit, Tsonil kievameie                    atanur.
8b. but God-ERG sent   he-ACC, John   See(spiritual)-FUT.SBJV-LAUD light-DAT.


EDIT: Fixed some suffixes and inserted ad position for Sunshine-ish Light (Topical).  May need to rewrite this whole thing.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 08:09:06 pm by Txur’Itan »
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Offline Col Quaritch

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2010, 04:07:44 am »
ROFL I think I just got totally lost here.


Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2010, 09:10:17 am »
Okay :)

Slowly, take a deep breath, think about it and try to find out where you got lost. We can get through the whole thing right from the beginning. So get back to where you still understood, and then ask questions about those things, that you did not understand.

No need to hurry, we want a good foundation for what we do, so let's take the time to build it, however long it might take. sk your questions, and e can get along the way like this. Just don't get discouraged.



Yawä ngahu ma Col Quaritch
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Col Quaritch

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2010, 09:24:43 am »
I think the break down of the first 5 verse i post just over whelmed me. I will admit I'm not high on the food chain of language smarts. What I did was take the Youngs litteral translation approach so to speak. I just dont seem to understand these language rules which is starting to make me ask should I even be involved in this project. I know the word, I know how to preach it research it and help others understand it. But to try and translate to a whole new language I'm starting to think I'm just not cut out for this. Not going say this is me quiting but I just saying I'm feeling very very overwhelmed by it all and very unsure of much of anything other than what I would like to see as the finish goal.


Offline riftmaster

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2010, 09:56:56 am »
If only Paul frommer was here!   LOL




Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2010, 10:04:47 am »
Quote from: Col
I think the break down of the first 5 verse i post just over whelmed me.
Didn't mean to break you down, sorry. I wasn't sure how much you do or do not understand the language terms, maybe I should have explained a bit more...

Quote from: Col
I will admit I'm not high on the food chain of language smarts.
Neither am I, that's no problem. It's all much easier than it sounds. May I ask: Do you know any other language than English? Just to know how to explain things the best.

Quote from: Col
I just dont seem to understand these language rules
Maybe not yet, but as for Na'vi, nobody does. None of us is mother tungue, even those who post in the Na'vi only section not. This is why I thought this Na'vi train is good to jump onto. Getting into the language step by step, as it evolves.

Quote from: Col
starting to make me ask should I even be involved in this project
You are the one who started this, you can't leave us back without our leader. Plus you once mentioned how blessed you feel about all of this. Don't get discouraged by the first roughs. We're gonna do this step by step, I offer my help and I am sure, some who really know the language will offer their help as well. You can do this. We can do this.
And remember, there are not even a hand full of us around at the time being. So everyone dropping off might lead to the end of this project.

Quote from: Col
I know the word, I know how to preach it research it and help others understand it.
And these skills are more important than mere language fluency. Because their ain't no words for many things we have in the bible. So we have to find out the meaning and recode it in another language rather than go word by word. This is what the translators made, when they translated the bibe to our languages. Hebrew for example functions completely differently from English or German, so they also had to recode the meaning rather than just use the other words. But to do a good quality recode, we need good quality understanding of what is meant.
After all, Bibe translation is just what you mentioned: Preach the word and help others understand it, this time the community of Na'vi speakers. I don't know if they want to hear the word, some might read the Na'vi bible for linguistic reasons alone, or use it at conventions, Pandora-Style weddings and what not. Anyway, this is not our business. We joined here to get the word translated in Na'vi, and how this will effect people is not in our hands, that's work for the Holy Spirit to do. We can only do our best in our part.

Quote from: Col
But to try and translate to a whole new language I'm starting to think I'm just not cut out for this.
Nothing is too big for you if God is with you. And you never know if you are cut out for something unless you try. Nobody wanted to overwhelm you, we just have to get in pace so everybody can follow. There is no need for fast pace, good thing needs time, and we want to do good work, don't we?
We need you as starter of the project, we need your skills to make people understand the bible. And we're certainly gonna help you with getting those language rules into your brains. They made me pass Latin and Greek, so nothing is impossible ;)

Quote from: Col
very unsure of much of anything other than what I would like to see as the finish goal.
Then maybe let's talk about the finish goal beforehand. I for my part see this as a process that is just about to start. We might not get far, God only knows, but we can try. If we end up having John, some Psalms and maybe one of Paul's letters that would in my view be a great achievement. Or course we want the whole Bible, but yet we have almost nothing, so everyting more is a plus.
There are many real peoples who have nothing more but one or two gospels or psalms, so if we could get this done, even if it takes months, it would be something. Even the prologue of John is so dense in a theological sense, that it is a gain to have that alone.

I for my part want to work on this to get the bible into Na'vi, but also for myself, to get into the word, think about the word, reread the word, get new insights, and of course for the community, to get together with other christians, learn something new, feel being part of the one body of Christ altogether. This is all something that could happen, God willing, and translation of the bibe is only the way to get there. If we get a Na'vi Bible this way, we'd be really blessed, because we have communion, a deeper knowledge of His word, and we'll have His word in a new language.
What more can you ask?


So let's get this started together, ask your questions (they could also help others who have the same questions and are afraid to join the project because of not yet so good language skills), I try my best to answer them, and others will as well. Let's not get discouraged by the overwhelming amount of things that need to be done, let's take it slowly, step by step, and all together.

Yawä ngahu
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Col Quaritch

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2010, 10:38:38 am »
WOW talk about encourghment. You deffenly gave it to me and helped me realise I took my eyes off the bigger picture and why I was lead to do this, bless you sooo much buddy. Your right gotta keep my eye on the goal and him who called me to do this project. Ok done with the spirital two arrows in the chest I'm ready to get back on track.


Offline TesterScot

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2010, 10:52:36 am »
WOW talk about encourghment. You deffenly gave it to me and helped me realise I took my eyes off the bigger picture and why I was lead to do this, bless you sooo much buddy. Your right gotta keep my eye on the goal and him who called me to do this project. Ok done with the spirital two arrows in the chest I'm ready to get back on track.

Txantsan!

I was just about to agree with ma Tìmuiäyä'itan.
This is going to be a l-o-n-g haul... though it'll hopefully take less time than the Septuagint ;D

The longer we work at this the more words we'll have available to us and the more we'll understand - of both the scriptures and the na'vi language.

Yawä ngahu!



Irayoru 'Awve Tìkameie for the profile pic. Go to http://www.mpandoraln.weebly.com to see his ongoing work.
Brand New Learner - please correct my usage 8-)

Offline Col Quaritch

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2010, 10:58:29 am »
Thank you both, this helps knowing I have friends like you there. Sorry I got a my eyes off the target, Ok back in the race as Paul said to run. :)


Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Bible in Na'vi
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2010, 11:29:19 am »
Great to know you're back! Just wanted to leave a short notice, I'm in class right now, small break (lecture on christianity in India, rea interesting by the way ;)).

Anyway, maybe you can post the first questions on those overwhleming things, Col, I'll be back later today. I think I shall link some of the Grammar guides and explainations here, so people who want to get on helping (riftmaster, how about?) can also find their way.

Yawä ngahu ma smukan
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

 

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