Author Topic: Genesis 3:1  (Read 1393 times)

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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Genesis 3:1
« on: November 14, 2011, 12:38:04 pm »
Probably no one checks here, but I wanted to ask for help since it's been a long time

Lamu txantslusam to na'rìngä frayioang a Yawä ngolop eltungawng.
The brainworm was wiser than all the beasts of the forest which Yahweh created.

brainword - We have no word for snake.
wise - We have no word for 'subtle' or 'cunning'.  I'm open to some tsuk- combo...
'snake' is at the end for punch.  In Hebrew, it is rare to start a word with a noun (as this sentence does), so that is emphatic.

Poltxe Muntxateru fayluta srake Yawäl poltxe san zenke yivom menga ta na'rìngä frautral sìk.
(he) said to Wife these word: yes or no, Yahweh said you-two must not from any tree of the forest?

I'm way out of practice, so please let me know what I did wrong.  God bless.

'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 12:45:34 pm »
Actually I'm still checking but forgot all the Na'vi I once knew (plus: I guess the language did indeed develop in the last year). So I can hardly tell anything about the sentence. On the other hand, I am not free these days to recommit myself to the bible project, at least not yet, because Exam's coming my way and I need to be prepared. Hope things get better afterwards...

Yawä ngahu
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 12:51:19 pm »
That's alright.  No commitment needed.  I'm in seminary now and exams come in a few weeks here too.  Just trying to generate reviews.
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 12:07:15 pm »
I think that Yawä was decided pretty LONG LONG ago by somebody who didn't know Na'vi phonology. IMO Yawey would be a better transliteration, as Yawä ending with a as in apple is kind of weird and far from the Hebrew pronounciation.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

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"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 12:19:35 pm »
I remember the discussion but thought we settled on Yawì, not? Because Yawey is English. The -ey- part would be based on the waw in Hebrew, which we have in the w in either Yawä or Yawey. Question would be for the Hebrew part, which vowel we consider following.
We have no vowelized Version of YHWH other than what ended up as Jehova (which we now know is wrong vowelization). All we have (as far as I know) is the Greek ιαουε, transcribed: I-A-O-Y-E; OY would be the w or the waw again.
So finally one would have to decide, what the E is. I'd say it is something like Na'vi í, maybe also e or ä (that's why I came up with Yawä in the first place). But I see now reason for Yawey, coming from Hebrew. Yawey makes only sense if you come from English.
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Yawne Zize’ite

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 10:34:08 pm »
I know I'm butting in here, but Greek ε is usually reconstructed as [ɛ] for Koine Greek and as [e] for other periods. [e] looks closer to [ɪ] but, in my experience, is more likely to be connected to [ɛ]. Throw in the uncertainty as to whether Koine ε is [e] or [ɛ], and I don't see "Yawì" as defensible, much less "Yawä".

Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 09:38:03 am »
What about my two sentences?
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 03:48:09 pm »
Probably no one checks here, but I wanted to ask for help since it's been a long time

Lamu txantslusam to na'rìngä frayioang a Yawä ngolop eltungawng.
The brainworm was wiser than all the beasts of the forest which Yahweh created.
Good to see you back again, ma Eltu. I have been praying for you and all the other fine 'blue Christians' here!

As your sentence now sits, it says something like 'Be wiser than forest's animals that Yawey created brainworm'

First of all, I like your construction for 'snake'! However, in Na'vi, it makes more sense at the beginning of the sentence, like in English. In translating something, you are looking to translate meaning, rather than word order. The Na'vi wouldn't begin to use the Hebrew word order in their writing because at best it conveys no additional meaning. At worst, it confuses things.

I think with frayioang, you constructed it from fra- + ay+ + ioang Since you are already saying 'every' with fra-, the ay+ becomes unnecessary. So, that word should really be fraioang.

There is a superlative in Na'vi, frato that means 'than all'. You could use this in place of to with good effect. So, I would, as a first stab, suggest entu-ngawng lamu txantslusam frato na'rìngä fraioang a Yawä ngolop. The biggest question I would have here now is if a construction is needed for 'wiser' vs 'wise'. But you are right. A word for 'cunning' is really needed here. (I used the dash between eltu and ngawng because eltungawng is not a legal word.)

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto
brainword - We have no word for snake.
wise - We have no word for 'subtle' or 'cunning'.  I'm open to some tsuk- combo...
'snake' is at the end for punch.  In Hebrew, it is rare to start a word with a noun (as this sentence does), so that is emphatic.

Poltxe Muntxateru fayluta srake Yawäl poltxe san zenke yivom menga ta na'rìngä frautral sìk.
(he) said to Wife these word: yes or no, Yahweh said you-two must not from any tree of the forest?

This is closer than the previous sentence. I think you will need a po or a poan in the first part of the sentence. I think we can safely leave po/poan not case-marked as the phrase overall has an intransitive construction. I believe there needs to be a san before the middle phrase, with the final sìk closing both quotes. In the final phrase, I would use rä'ä in place of zenke and the drop the <iv> in yivom, as this is pretty imperative. With the modal verb out of the sentence, menga would become mengati (I would use -ti here over -t because the next word begins with t. The preposition at the very end is fine. So, I would write this as: Poltxe poan muntxateru fayluta srake san Yawäl poltxe san rä'ä yom mengati ta na'rìngä frautral sìk.

I am sure I am not 100% correct here, but I suspect it is a lot closer.

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto
I'm way out of practice, so please let me know what I did wrong.  God bless.

You need to visit more often. the Bible thread is dormant, not dead. As I have said all along, this will be a sloooow process if it is done right.

Next project is a Bible in Dothraki!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro eylan.falulukana@gmail.com

Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 11:17:00 pm »
Glad to see you've kept at it.  We need to stick with it if we're going to get done before the next movies come out! :P

Very little to contest with anything anyone has said.
Hebrew lacks a superlative.  I figured fra- + a singular = everything and fra- + a plural = all things.  I thought maybe we should just say "The brain-worm was wiser than all the beasts of the forest which Yahweh created."

Verse 1
Eltungawng lamu txantslusam to na'rìngä frayioang a Yawä ngolop.
Poltxe poan muntxateru fayluta srake san Yawäl poltxe san rä'ä yom mengati ta na'rìngä frautral sìk.

Going on to vv.2-3
Poltxe poe eltungawngur san moe yivom ta na'rìngä frautral slä
mìkamtseng na'rìngä lu utral a fì'uri Yawä poltxe san rä'ä yom ulte rä'ä 'ampi fteke terkup sìk sìk.

I think I said
She said to the worm, "We (two) may eat from every tree of the forest but
regarding the tree in the middle of the forest, God said, 'Do not eat and do not touch lest (you) die.'"
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 01:05:13 am »
Glad to see you've kept at it.  We need to stick with it if we're going to get done before the next movies come out! :P

Very little to contest with anything anyone has said.
Hebrew lacks a superlative.  I figured fra- + a singular = everything and fra- + a plural = all things.  I thought maybe we should just say "The brain-worm was wiser than all the beasts of the forest which Yahweh created."

If using a superlative in Na'vi conveys the Hebrew meaning better, by all means use it. Moat English translations use a superlative here.

Although I am still not completely comfortable with frayioang, I can see where that might mean 'all animals' as opposed to fraioang meaning 'all animal'.

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto
Verse 1
Eltungawng lamu txantslusam to na'rìngä frayioang a Yawä ngolop.
Poltxe poan muntxateru fayluta srake san Yawäl poltxe san rä'ä yom mengati ta na'rìngä frautral sìk.

Going on to vv.2-3
Poltxe poe eltungawngur san moe yivom ta na'rìngä frautral slä
mìkamtseng na'rìngä lu utral a fì'uri Yawä poltxe san rä'ä yom ulte rä'ä 'ampi fteke terkup sìk sìk.

I think I said
She said to the worm, "We (two) may eat from every tree of the forest but
regarding the tree in the middle of the forest, God said, 'Do not eat and do not touch lest (you) die.'"

I have no real problems with your translation of verse 2. I like your use of the standalone subjunctive in yivom. You don't see standalone subjunctives often enough in the Na'vi I have read.
Verse 3 has some problems. As you have it written, it says '(in)center of forests's be tree that Yawey said 'do not eat and do not touch lest die'.
First of all, you missed something in the original scripture, the mention of fruit on the tree. Na'vi doesn't have a word for 'fruit', tle closest being rina', 'seed'. This is appropriate as must fruit is a seed-bearing organ.
Adpositions used before words are not enclitic. There needs to be a space between the adposition and the word it modifies.
Finally, I think that a pronoun is needed in the final clause.
The double sìk at the end is unnecessary unless this would confuse meaning in what is to follow. In most cases, a single sik works when two or more quotes end together.
So, I would write for verse 3:

On a good note, you made good and appropriate use of a topical relative clause.

Rina' utralä mì kxamtseng naringä a fì'uri Yawä poltxe san rä'ä yom ulte rä'ä 'ampi fteke terkup nga sìk.

I originally used menga at the end of the sentence, but then it occurred to me that God was being personal when giving this as instruction, as one person does not die for the sins of another.

Does this make sense?

And while we are back on THAT subject again, which do you think is closer to the Hebrew pronunciation? yawä, yawey or yawì?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 01:07:52 am by `Eylan Ayfalulukanä »

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro eylan.falulukana@gmail.com

Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 06:11:24 am »
I have no real problems with your translation of verse 2. I like your use of the standalone subjunctive in yivom. You don't see standalone subjunctives often enough in the Na'vi I have read.
Thanks!
First of all, you missed something in the original scripture, the mention of fruit on the tree. Na'vi doesn't have a word for 'fruit', tle closest being rina', 'seed'. This is appropriate as must fruit is a seed-bearing organ.
I thought about this and came to no conclusion.  I think perhaps fkxen might be best, since "seed" is going to come up in v.15 so prominently.

Finally, I think that a pronoun is needed in the final clause.
...
I originally used menga at the end of the sentence, but then it occurred to me that God was being personal when giving this as instruction, as one person does not die for the sins of another.

Does this make sense?
May not.  All the verbs there at the end (eat, touch & die) are in the 2nd-person Masculine plural imperfective in Hebrew.  i.e. "y'all shall not eat and y'all shall not touch lest y'all die."  I was for skipping all pronouns, but a menga at the end isn't bad.

And while we are back on THAT subject again, which do you think is closer to the Hebrew pronunciation? yawä, yawey or yawì?
Scholarship is sooooo divided on this.  If I had to pick, I say -ey.
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 05:39:07 pm »
The problem was that it is not written in Hebrew, as writing God's name was considered taboo. Therefore, "YHWH" was used as a placeholder. Whether it was intended to even be pronounced is actually up to debate. Maybe it is like using "USA" as an acronym...I can imagine 1000 years later, people will come up with pronunciations like "UkiSanA"
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Genesis 3:1
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 09:52:08 pm »
Here's a good chance to test drive Yawey and more of my polemical translation style:

3:4-5
Poltxe eltungawng muntxateru san ke taryerkup menga nìngay,
taluna omum Yaweyìl futa mengari, yom a krr, piak sayeiyi menari, ulte pxel Eywa layeiu alu usomum sìltsan sì kawng sìk.
which I hope means
The worm said to the wife, "You-pair will not truly die,
because God knows that (reinserting topical into each clause), when you-pair eat, you-pair's eye-pairs will open(!) and you-pair will be(!) like god, that is, knowing good and evil."
'Ivong, Na'vi!

 

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