Author Topic: Windows 8(Beta)  (Read 9690 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #100 on: March 30, 2013, 10:43:32 am »
I've tested Win8 in a virtual box. It is a nice OS and it have some new stuffs, but I missing the Start button (ok, with some tools I get it back) and the 'new' desktop is for a 1920x1080 23,6" monitor too big. Hello MS we have here an OS not a smartphone. ::)
Just like:
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And the 'new win' is just like a Service Pack.

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Offline Swoka Ikran

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #101 on: March 30, 2013, 10:56:29 am »
Well, I don't have any problems with Windows 8 (Maybe not BETA). It runs a little bit better than my laptop which has Windows 7.
Much of the speed increase is mostly due to Aero's removal :) I participate on another website where this was discussed at length (I'd link but the topic was in an area that's "Members with 10+ posts"-only). Using identical hardware, a tweaked 7 box was comparable to an 8 box in most benchmarks. 8 was faster in all except video, but the numbers were close enough as to be statistically meaningless in most cases. 8's just more convenient for speed since you don't need to tweak it. Funnily enough, XP blew both out of the water. Tests were all performed on 32-bit OSes.

As for why I have so much trouble with 8...its not that I hate it so much as I get absolutely no benefit from it for what I use my PC for. Apps are worthless since I can use one or two vs. 8, not to mention I can get more functionality from the desktop version of the same program. Resolution is an issue, since I'm using monitors that support 1280x1024 max. I often start something while watching processes run (software compile, etc.), so hiding what I'm doing with that start screen isn't desired. Then there's annoyances like the charms bar...who thought that was a good idea on a PC? Same goes for burying the shutdown option.

I honestly don't mind 8, but I have to install a start menu just to be remotely close to productive on a PC that has it. When I fix Win8 PCs, its the first thing I do, remove it when done if the user doesn't want it.
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #102 on: March 30, 2013, 11:06:52 am »
To go with this, they build the server platforms at the same time for feature and security compatibility.  (At least that's the theory...)

When I need a 20 page technet article titled "Common Management Tasks and Navigation in Windows Server 2012", to run a 2012 server to understand what the new shortcuts and keystrokes are, we have a problem...

Seriously, I need that right edge "Settings" bar to reboot my server?  Let alone, be able to have multiple screens open?  Sorry, past kvm's don't support touch screens...

I can believe the speed improvement.  Didn't even know that Aero was removed.  That's disappointing although half the hardware in use didn't support the advanced graphics anyway.  And no surprise with XP x86 blowing it away, even with reduced ram capability.  Can you say, "inflated code"?  Good, I thought you could...  ;)

Offline Swoka Ikran

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #103 on: March 30, 2013, 12:33:53 pm »
To go with this, they build the server platforms at the same time for feature and security compatibility.  (At least that's the theory...)

When I need a 20 page technet article titled "Common Management Tasks and Navigation in Windows Server 2012", to run a 2012 server to understand what the new shortcuts and keystrokes are, we have a problem...

Seriously, I need that right edge "Settings" bar to reboot my server?  Let alone, be able to have multiple screens open?  Sorry, past kvm's don't support touch screens...
When I saw a 2012 preview for the first time, I laughed and thought it was a joke. I didn't think MS would actually shove a tablet UI onto a server, but they did. WTF?

I can believe the speed improvement.  Didn't even know that Aero was removed.  That's disappointing although half the hardware in use didn't support the advanced graphics anyway. 
Win8 had a boot time faster by 4 seconds when I personally tested the two; they were virtually identical with Aero off on the 7 install.

And no surprise with XP x86 blowing it away, even with reduced ram capability.  Can you say, "inflated code"?  Good, I thought you could...  ;)
There's a reason my primary PC still has XP on it. I could have it lug 7 around (it has 3GB RAM and a Phenom II x4), or I can get it to scream on XP. Odds are it'll be widely user-supported after support ends, too.  Even Win2000 is still getting security updates...there's a group of users that backport the XP patches and publish them.
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Offline Eltusiyu

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2013, 07:59:32 am »
Couple of months ago I've told I'm developing learnnavi app for Windows 8.
Here is small preview what I've done :)

http://forum.learnnavi.org/mobile-apps/learnnavi-for-windows-8-rt/

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2013, 10:30:16 pm »
In fact, I actually like the Windows 8 start menu thingie. That's generally because I never ever use the start menu with the mouse even with previous versions of Windows. Just press the start menu key and type the name of the program and press enter. It feels way more responsive and intelligent - Windows 7 could lock up for a short while searching for the name of the program.
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Offline Swoka Ikran

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2013, 11:25:52 pm »
I'm the exact opposite. I'm someone who never uses the start menu with their keyboard. If I want to run something without a mouse: Win+R, <filename>, ENTER.

Besides, XP has no search by name function. I still do it on 7/8 boxes because name searches often are ambiguous unless I type the full name.

For example, I use a program called Workspace Virtualization. On 7 and 8, I type "virtual" and get Virtual PC, VirtualBox, Workspace Virtualization, Virtualized Synth, and Virtual Clone Drive, then select Workspace Virtualization. Or, I can Win+R, svui, ENTER, and Workspace Virtualization opens immediately. I'll admit it's not intuitive, but it is faster.
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Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2013, 07:20:25 am »
Interesting. I did not know the XP Alt+F2 command changed into Win+R later on. I'll use it more often, but a big bad thing about Windows is there is no standard /usr/bin director so you need to remember the big long path. If you type a fuller name of the program into the start menu it works better (i.e. Oracle VirtualBox rather than just virtual).
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Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2013, 07:21:40 am »
Also, this is exactly the way you should use the start menu on GNOME 3, where I spend my other half of my time. GNOME 3's start menu also sucks with the mouse, since that's not how you use it. Another reason why unlike others I hate GNOME 2 - the start menu isn't keyboard-searchable, unlike in KDE and GNOME 3.
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Offline Swoka Ikran

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2013, 07:48:28 am »
Interesting. I did not know the XP Alt+F2 command changed into Win+R later on. I'll use it more often, but a big bad thing about Windows is there is no standard /usr/bin director so you need to remember the big long path. If you type a fuller name of the program into the start menu it works better (i.e. Oracle VirtualBox rather than just virtual).
Actually, most decent programs add AppPath entries in the registry, meaning you can type just the EXE name and it knows where to find it. WIN+R, winword, ENTER opens MS word without typing the path, for instance. For the apps that don't do this, you can add them to your system path or create the AppPath entry manually.

As for typing full names, yes it does work better, but in the time I type out the full name, wait for Windows to find it, and hit ENTER, I can have it open already with the other method...

Some might wonder why I use a PC this way...when I first started using PCs (DOS/Win3) 16 years ago, I got used to a command line and just never left it behind. Old habits die hard...
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Offline Swoka Ikran

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2013, 05:25:51 pm »
Microsoft admitted failure today, at least for those without touch screens. Should've thrown in the towel on Windows 8 long ago...good to see it finally happened.

CNBC now reports that MS has admitted that Win8 is a failure, claiming it as one of the biggest mass-market product failures of the past several decades. The scale/impact of MS's admission is compared to "New coke" from Coca-cola, one of the most infamous change-induced product failures of recent times. Oops.

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100713593
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #111 on: May 07, 2013, 05:40:40 pm »
I think that if they optionally allowed (meaning included the bloated code) for the metro screen, then people could slowly be introduced to it and learn.  But to ask companies to switch on the enterprise level to something so radically different, was just a bad business call.  The good news will be hopefully that with Windows Blue (or SP upgrade...), maybe some of the standardized features will be returned.

Now, will they hopefully also ditch the unwanted metro screen off of Server 2012?   :-\

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #112 on: May 07, 2013, 06:04:12 pm »
Interesting. I did not know the XP Alt+F2 command changed into Win+R later on. I'll use it more often, but a big bad thing about Windows is there is no standard /usr/bin director so you need to remember the big long path. If you type a fuller name of the program into the start menu it works better (i.e. Oracle VirtualBox rather than just virtual).
Actually, most decent programs add AppPath entries in the registry, meaning you can type just the EXE name and it knows where to find it. WIN+R, winword, ENTER opens MS word without typing the path, for instance. For the apps that don't do this, you can add them to your system path or create the AppPath entry manually.

As for typing full names, yes it does work better, but in the time I type out the full name, wait for Windows to find it, and hit ENTER, I can have it open already with the other method...

Some might wonder why I use a PC this way...when I first started using PCs (DOS/Win3) 16 years ago, I got used to a command line and just never left it behind. Old habits die hard...
Exactly the good part about Windows 8. Windows finds the program really quickly.
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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #113 on: May 08, 2013, 02:06:34 pm »
Microsoft admitted failure today, at least for those without touch screens. Should've thrown in the towel on Windows 8 long ago...good to see it finally happened.

CNBC now reports that MS has admitted that Win8 is a failure, claiming it as one of the biggest mass-market product failures of the past several decades. The scale/impact of MS's admission is compared to "New coke" from Coca-cola, one of the most infamous change-induced product failures of recent times. Oops.

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100713593
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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2013, 05:47:39 pm »
Microsoft admitted failure today, at least for those without touch screens. Should've thrown in the towel on Windows 8 long ago...good to see it finally happened.

CNBC now reports that MS has admitted that Win8 is a failure, claiming it as one of the biggest mass-market product failures of the past several decades. The scale/impact of MS's admission is compared to "New coke" from Coca-cola, one of the most infamous change-induced product failures of recent times. Oops.

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100713593
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Offline Eltusiyu

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2013, 12:39:46 am »
Flamewar surrounding Windows 8 will never end.
I love it anyway myself.

Yes, they see that people do not like Windows 8 (mostly new start screen). I know that someone wants older start menu but what's there so important? W8's Start Screen is the same start menu as it was in 7 but it's full screen, you can pin there any file/folder etc. and of course has a lot of better search functions than older start menu has...  Yes, maybe they will bring start buton and boot to desktop in Windows 8.1 but this button will still lead to Start Screen. I'm using Windows from 95 and in my opinion Windows 8 is the best of them. It's fast, stable, 2 OS in 1 (Modern/Windows).

I understand how people can hate Vista. Because it's slow, heavy, buggy. But W8 just because it doesn't have start menu which is crap at all?

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #116 on: May 09, 2013, 08:26:14 am »
Yeah. People are just used to the start menu too much. I was used to GNOME 3's "start menu" before Windows 8 came along since my Windows 7 installation was very fragmented and slow due to full-to-the-brim C:\; thus I almost never used Windows 7. GNOME 3's launcher works somewhat similar to that of Windows 8 keyboard-wise except it's not too tabletty (though still full screen).
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #117 on: May 09, 2013, 09:02:45 am »
..... I don't think you realize the economic impact of the problem in expense to a company.  It is one thing for one user to learn something new on their own.  But say you have a company that has 500 users.  Now you need to retrain those 500 users to learn Windows 8 hoping that all the programs they've used, still are compatible.  In our case, we had some legacy (meaning old and non upgradeable) programs that were 10 years old...  Now if you pay these employees an average of $20/hour and it takes, for example, 2.5 hours to train them, you are looking at 500 x $20 x 2.5 = $25,000 just in training.  Now you have to consider that, this training replaced the time they needed to work.  So you have this amount of work that has to be made up later.  AND..., how much slower these employees will be at first (and some for many weeks as not everyone will figure it this new crazy operating system and what was wrong with the old one?)...  And we haven't even talked about testing before rolling out the new operating system.

So simply changing a small to medium size company could well cost the company $50K to $100K in productive work and time.  (Plus we're making the assumption that the existing computers are good enough to run Windows 8 anyway...)  Plus you'll need to factor in the extra time the IT Department (help desk) will spend answering extra calls.  NOW... go explain to your company executive (owner) that you need to spend $50K to $100K that no one planned on spending just to upgrade everyone to Windows 8...  (Plus IT Dept's time in actually creating images/drives with Windows 8 on it!  Then we cannot really work to improve anything else while we get this finished...)

I agree that an individual person can learn Windows 8 with some struggles.  And your time is just your time.  However, from a company point of view, we change/refresh computers in groups (like a location/site) or even all at once if it is a program update needed by all.

This is why I think Microsoft needs to restore (or give the option for) a classic "start button" desktop (Windows 7 Explorer) option rather than just limiting the display to the metro look.  I agree that metro is much more image oriented.  But from a company/corporate point of view, making such a chance would cost a company too much to embrace and quickly roll out.  I think over time, if it is replaced in a planned manner one department at a time, it would work.  But there is still the training cost and loss of productivity that a company would have to pay extra for.  Having the newest OS can be nice, however from a company IT Dept., point of view, I would have to have an answer ready to show my executives that making such a big change would benefit them (in $) in the long run.  I can also tell you that our CIO's answer was "no, keep it on XP/Windows 7 for now" when we discussed Windows 8 this past fall.....

From an individual or new user, I can agree that Windows 8 has its appeal.  I can also tell you from experience, that older users are having a disaster of a time adapting to it.  My next door elderly neighbor, bought a Win 8 laptop, and just couldn't remember or figure it out.  I ended up upgrading her old 12+ year old XP tower and she's been happy.  I'm not saying that Windows 8 doesn't have some interactive advantages, but there's a big learning curve.  And Microsoft got hung up on its self importance that everyone would just switch over.  Part of the problem being, they also expected everyone to buy new computers.  Which is not a wise conclusion during a horrible economic period.  (Not to mention, many existing computers in service, cannot run Windows 8 nor have drivers made to support doing so...)

The other thing, is that software companies need business consumption to make their profits.  And, if you'll read my comments made end of last summer, you need to also consider that Windows 8 was a failure because of lack of corporate buy in.  Simply put, not only was the licensing a cost, but computers had to be replaced.  And many companies won't pay for that expense as there is no return on that investment.  Meaning switching to Windows 8 wouldn't make them money.  That's the biggest argument/setback any IT department has when trying to get budgeting.  As far as the CFO is concerned, however necessary IT is to a company, it doesn't make them money.

So the problem is..., that Windows 8 is a nice product.  But it was meant for a computer system that really is only just coming into production.  (Hint.... Microsoft has offered as part of the recent Dell buyback to re-privatization over $2B as a partnership investment so Dell can design and make computers that will support Microsoft OS...)  And, if you read my above quote, a corporation has to factor in the cost of retraining and productivity LOSS due to time, confusion, frustration, and just getting used to Windows 8.  And that's a cost factor that businesses are not willing to take a risk on because there's no financial gain / profit for doing so.  It's just something that will have to eventually happen.  And with even XP still being supported in end of life stage updates for another year, if the computer is "good enough", why would you upgrade if you can stretch it a little longer?

As an admin, bringing back the start button, however "quaint", will be a huge plus for a transition.  Not to mention better direct access to the classic Control Panel for administration purposes...

As to Vista... I'm not sure people realize this...  But the core/kernal of Vista didn't change as much as people think when it was redone for Windows 7.  What changed was the security templates, and desktop, and how the UIC (security pop up asking all the time if you really wanted to allow something...) was scaled back to be less intrusive.  The biggest programming change in the Windows 7 code was actually, besides the security, was graphics support.  (And in Windows 7, there were major changes to how user names, passwords, etc.. were embedded into the code to reduce hacking...)

So the problem really is...  individual users / purchasers...  vs business / corporate / government.  Two very very different sets of users.  Both of which are required for Microsoft to make its profits.  And that's why they are in business...  RDA pure and simple.  Reinstating the start button will help quite a bit.  But Microsoft is going to have to prove to business that they really need Windows 8 to be more profitable and cost effective...  Eventually time / attrition of old computer systems will cause that reality.  But not overnight...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:11:07 am by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Swoka Ikran

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #118 on: May 09, 2013, 10:32:01 am »
W8's Start Screen is the same start menu as it was in 7 but it's full screen,
That's actually the primary reason I hate it. I don't want it full screen, because I often launch something while watching the progress of another task (e.g. launching a test program while watching the software to be tested compile). If the start screen could exist in a window and let me leave my programs visible, I wouldn't mind it so much.

The other frustration is that certain stuff got moved around unnecessarily after being the same place for 17 years...
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Windows 8(Beta)
« Reply #119 on: May 09, 2013, 10:37:33 am »
W8's Start Screen is the same start menu as it was in 7 but it's full screen,
That's actually the primary reason I hate it. I don't want it full screen, because I often launch something while watching the progress of another task (e.g. launching a test program while watching the software to be tested compile). If the start screen could exist in a window and let me leave my programs visible, I wouldn't mind it so much.

Completely agree!  For users that have multiple documents open side by side, this becomes an issue.  Not to mention, having say a pdf open, the command line (multiple boxes), and something else where you actually need to reference all of them at once...

They should simply leave the Windows 8 Metro embedded.  And allow a manual change back to "Windows Classic" with a start button.  Leave it to the user.  Then eventually, people would make the transition once touch screens and other applications catch up with the new interface...

 

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