Hans Rosling attacks the "Crazy directors of the Avatars"

[Redpaintednavi]

The well known professor of health Hans Rosling attacks Cameron and others who tries to hinder the buildings of the dams in Brazil. Han claims that those who are forcefully removed in connection with the building of such dams are just a tiny part of all who moves into the cities in todays world. He also do not like what he calles "the Crazy directors of the Avatars that go to Brazil and try to stop the dams. He speaks about how high the infant mortality is among the Avatars (i presume he means the Na vi) and that noone lives ecologically in the rainforest but dies ecologically there. He also commends brazils president for her motto "Electricity for all".

What do you think about Roslings attack?

from 65.25 into the programm (in Swedish):
http://urplay.se/163294

[Toruk Makto]

How "well known" is this wiggler? I've never even heard of him.

[wm.annis]

How "well known" is this wiggler? I've never even heard of him.

He is pretty well known, mostly for his TED talks I would guess.  He does some very interesting work in visualization and data on the developing world.  He's more than a wiggler.

[Toruk Makto]

  Ah ha! Then I suppose I need to become more informed!  


 However, I have always disagreed with a default "good of the many outweigh the good of the few" mindset. That kind of mentality tends to short-circuit the process of trying to find a solution that doesn't screw the few.

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

Someone please send this dolt a copy of "Original Wisdom."

[Kathryn]

Kaltxi frapo,
                This is always the cry.... length of life rather than the quality of it. I can only assume that such people feel as they do from a pathological fear of death.
The rain-forest dwellers do not want their home altered or destroyed for someone else's profit (and the motive is profit a lot more than it s "electricity for everyone"), and who is to blame them for that?
Why is it that arrogant city-dwellers always assume that their way is "best"?
I live in New Zealand, where there is still a lot of free space, and even so we are fighting to keep our environment clean (or clean up the dirty bits that we have made) and to halt this headlong rush to "progress" that involves flooded valleys, polluted rivers, lakes and coastlines and air that is not fit to breathe.
There is more to life than the length of it, but of course the clinging to every second of life no matter what its quality is the product of the belief that this life is all you are going to get.... and we know the source of that idea, don't we?
This man is an idiot who does not want to see that we live on a spaceship, albeit a large one, and that if we harm, its life support system much more than we have already, there is no future for any of us.
The "Rrta" of Avatar is not that far away; we have far too many humans on this pretty blue planet already, and if we don't get real pretty damned fast.

The earth is our Mother.... we must learn again to respect and love Her....

Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä? Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

Tiyawn si atan ulte Eywa ngahu,,
                                               Kathryn

[archaic]

In the developed nations there in a perception that length of life paramount, quality of life is irrelevant.

[wm.annis]

In the developed nations there in a perception that length of life paramount, quality of life is irrelevant.

Ok, that's ridiculous.  That modern medicine is capable of drawing out life to a degree that raises serious moral questions is not in doubt.  But show me a single person in a developed country who says that quality of life is irrelevant.  This is a caricature.

[Toruk Makto]

  Perhaps the terminology is off, but the idea is valid. Frequently, people will go to great lengths to extend the length of their lives even at the cost of quality of that life.

 More to the current issue, who is to say who's life "quality" is better? The Xingo River people, or the people in the Brazilian cities?

[Kathryn]

Kaltxi,
         Exactly Marki.... "quality of life" has little to do with material possessions or longevity.
In the so-called "civilised" world there is incredible violence, both the physical and psychological sort, in a society so ridiculously affluent that one wonders, as Freddie Mercury sang, "what the hell we're fighting for".
We have lost so much in our blind pursuit of material affluence....
We, as a species, have lost our social cohesion and spiritual awareness in a welter of apathy mixed with greed.
I have been  well-off, with the high-paid job, paid-for house, car and money in the bank etc. etc., and it did not make me happy. Presently, I have nothing, and live 14 days off destitution in the material sense. However I have that which even the wealth of Bill Gates could not bring me (and I am not anti Bill Gates), and that is spiritual balance, inner tranquility and self-knowledge and the sure knowing that no matter what happens there are a whole bunch of people that would feed and shelter me, even risk their lives for me in extremis, as I would for them.
Money and technology cannot cannot buy that because materialism tends to weaken and destroy that social cohesion and ethos.
By the general standards of my society I have nothing, but I am rich beyond dreams of avarice in every way that really counts..... and there is always "enough"
Here in NZ we are trying to re-learn some of those lost skills from our polynesian brethren who lost theirs a lot more recently than us from the North of the world. It took us northeners a few thousand years to abandon much of our humanity, and it will not be regained quickly, but the work is beginning and has been in progress for perhaps half a century now. The forest-dwellers and tribal peoples have much to teach us, but they cannot if we remove the possibility of their way of life. We could have the best of both worlds if we would cease to see our way as "better" because it is more comfortable. After all, what are we alive for? What's it all about?
I will not see the end of the work in this life, but I will spend the rest of it (20-25 years if I am lucky) to help with its beginning.

Tiyawn si atan

[Redpaintednavi]

See this thread about the mental aspect of Hunter Gatherer life style. It seems such a life style gives a high amount of life Quality:

http://forum.learnnavi.org/indigenous-cultures-and-humanitarian-efforts/life-as-an-adventure/

[Lolet]

Okay, how does this guy know how high the infant mortality rate is among Na'vi? 

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

Okaaaayyyy! What a f*** prick that guy is  ! Has he ever cared to do a little background research first before condemning all tribal societies on this planet  ?! If he'd ever watch a documentary about tribal societies he'd notice they have quite a lot of old people, very old people (in their 80s-90s.) and that they have very healthy, rich and happy lives  !

Okay, how does this guy know how high the infant mortality rate is among Na'vi? 

Good question, ma Lolet  . I doubt he's even seen the movie, even less that he's read about Na'vi lifespan on the Wikia. Prejudistic prick  !

[Lolet]

Okaaaayyyy! What a f***ing prick that guy is  ! Has he ever cared to do a little background research first before condemning all tribal societies on this planet  ?! If he'd ever watch a documentary about tribal societies he'd notice they have quite a lot of old people, very old people (in their 80s-90s.) and that they have very healthy, rich and happy lives  !

Okay, how does this guy know how high the infant mortality rate is among Na'vi? 

Good question, ma Lolet  . I doubt he's even seen the movie, even less that he's read about Na'vi lifespan on the Wikia. Prejudistic prick  !

Well, we shouldn't pretend like they never get sick at all. And what about broken bones, infections, and that sort of thing? But yes, they do seem to have a lot of really old people. Or maybe they just age poorly.

The thing is, if these people don't want their lifestyle changed, then they shouldn't have to.

[wm.annis]

Okay, how does this guy know how high the infant mortality rate is among Na'vi? 

Because he knows the infant mortality rate among humans who live similarly.

Has anyone bothered to do a little digging into who this guy is?  He has spent his entire working life devoted to public health issues in poorer countries.  Consider him mistaken all you want, but I don't think he deserves to be demonized for thinking high infant mortality is a bad thing.

People make bad decisions while trying to do the right thing all the time.  That doesn't make them evil or stupid.  Focus on his error, as you see it, not him. 

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

Okay, how does this guy know how high the infant mortality rate is among Na'vi? 

Because he knows the infant mortality rate among humans who live similarly. 

Well, that still doesn't mean he knows the infant mortality rates among the Na'vi. He shouldn't judge things he does not understand  !

[Nyx]

The thing is, if these people don't want their lifestyle changed, then they shouldn't have to.

Fì'u!

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

Okay, how does this guy know how high the infant mortality rate is among Na'vi? 

Because he knows the infant mortality rate among humans who live similarly.

Has anyone bothered to do a little digging into who this guy is?  He has spent his entire working life devoted to public health issues in poorer countries.  Consider him mistaken all you want, but I don't think he deserves to be demonized for thinking high infant mortality is a bad thing.

People make bad decisions while trying to do the right thing all the time.  That doesn't make them evil or stupid.  Focus on his error, as you see it, not him. 

Ah, that's the thing, too. There's a difference between truly tribal, H-G peoples (which very few, uncontacted peoples remain), and 3rd world countries full of people who have gotten the shaft of industrial/imperial civilization. Yeah, life isn't the best among them, but among truly H-G, tribal peoples, life is good. If only more examples of them still existed.

http://www.raw-food-health.net/HunterGatherers.html