HYDROGEN FUELD CAR PROSPECTS IN AMERICA

Started by Niri Te, March 16, 2012, 03:27:16 PM

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Niri Te

 Hey guys, It is pretty well known by our ay'elan on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, that the prospect of Hydrogen fueled cars in America faces some problems that are unique to the National Psychology, Topography,
Population density, Costs of the vehicles, and the now shaky American Economy, of our Country.
I came across this CNN MONEY report on the state of the movement in America, and thought that you folks would like to see it, so here it is.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/15/autos/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars/index.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fmoney_latest+%28Latest+News%29

Enjoy!!!
Niri Te
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Seze Mune


Niri Te

 Here are some intelligent points that are made by a Mr. J.D. Free about the prospects, and problems of Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology being a VIABLE solution, near term, in the States.

Hydrogen can only be a battery for another fuel source, since we can't extract it without using more energy than the fuel cell can mathematically produce. Thus hydrogen junkies propose using solar to create hydrogen. Let's look at that:

Using 2009 US energy usage and estimated 2016 cost per unit for solar (as estimated by the solar industry, which has reason to be optimistic), it would cost over $5.2 trillion/year to meet US energy needs with solar. This is 2.5 times the cost of current sources. GDP is ~$15 trillion, so we're looking at everyone in America spending 20% of their income that they don't spend today in order to fund this extra $3 trillion/year in energy costs. If you make $40,000 year, can you afford another $8,000/year expense?

And then he addresses the issue from the aspect of the effect on the environment of the TOTAL SYSTEM, not just the car itself, which is VERY clean, and burns no hydrocrabons.

Hydrogen can only be a battery for another fuel source, since we can't extract it without using more energy than the fuel cell can mathematically produce. Thus hydrogen junkies propose using solar to create hydrogen. Let's look at that:

Extracting hydrogen from water requires energy. A hydrogen fuel cell does the opposite, combining hydrogen with oxygen to make water. It is mathematically impossible to get more energy from the recombining than was required to do the separation. Once transport overhead is factored in, there is a net energy LOSS in the end-to-end process of using hydrogen fuel cells. This cannot be changed; it is a law of physics.

Using hydrogen fuel cells in cars will INCREASE overall energy needs. They are only zero-emission if you're one of those idiots who thinks that if no emissions come out of the car itself, then it's not responsible for any emissions. Such idiots should be kept as far from the policy-making process as possible.

So there you have it, ma ay'eylan, some opposing ideas on the technology, you get to decide who is right here.
Niri Te
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Seze Mune

It makes the hydrogen fueled car seem like a bad joke.

Niri Te

Quote from: Seze Mune on March 16, 2012, 07:42:45 PM
It makes the hydrogen fueled car seem like a bad joke.


ma Seze,
The idea itself is not a bad joke, but the notion that in 2015 or 2016, the infrastructure is going to be in place anywhere but a few select test markets, in places like Los Angeles, where they REALLY NEED it, or New York, and Chicago, where they need is almost as bad, is a bit laughable.
  Then there is the PRICE. When they talk of having the price DOWN to around 50K, my 2015 or 2016, I howled in laughter. Like one commenter said, "SEE there IS a reason for the one percent, THEY will be the ONLY ones able to afford one. If they want to make a SERIOUS DENT in the pollution in this Country, they will HAVE to get to where the price is on the low to mid TEENS. That might happen, but not for at LEAST a DECADE.
Niri Te
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Seze Mune

Quote from: Niri Te on March 16, 2012, 08:02:03 PM
Quote from: Seze Mune on March 16, 2012, 07:42:45 PM
It makes the hydrogen fueled car seem like a bad joke.


ma Seze,
The idea itself is not a bad joke, but the notion that in 2015 or 2016, the infrastructure is going to be in place anywhere but a few select test markets, in places like Los Angeles, where they REALLY NEED it, or New York, and Chicago, where they need is almost as bad, is a bit laughable.
  Then there is the PRICE. When they talk of having the price DOWN to around 50K, my 2015 or 2016, I howled in laughter. Like one commenter said, "SEE there IS a reason for the one percent, THEY will be the ONLY ones able to afford one. If they want to make a SERIOUS DENT in the pollution in this Country, they will HAVE to get to where the price is on the low to mid TEENS. That might happen, but not for at LEAST a DECADE.
Niri Te

And in a decade, one wonders what the median wage will be.

Meuiama Tsamsiyu (Toruk Makto)

They just installed two charging stations outside the Massage Envy I go to once a month.

I agree that the energy out vs energy stored is a factor but it has always been this way... Coal in the firebox of a steam locomotive. Oil products in a combustion engine... it even takes existing power to turn on a NEW power plant installed on the network.

I am of the opinion that with mass production the cost will plummet like the price of VCR's back in the day... $1500 for first run models back in the late 70's and now... $40.

As far as solar power is concerned... that is a completely unviable solution as an example here: Portland Tri-met (our mass transit system) installed a vertical dome wall at the end of the 'free ride' zone of the MAX line in Portland by I-405... the cost of the steel structure and the panels for some reason exceeds $13mil and will take who knows how long to pay off... so solar cost does not meat the end game that is needed for hydrogen engines to pay off.



"He who destroys a good book kills reason itself." -John Milton

"Mathematics is the gate and key to the sciences." -Roger Bacon

"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

Niri Te

 I agree ma Meuiama, it is just that there are a lot of people in this Country that don't know much about what it wil take to bring this system on line. They have been listening to the PR Spin Doctors, and they think that the whole thing will be plug and play in five years, with a buy-in price for them around 20K. Not on their BEST day. A majority of American's won't be ABLE to have one for twenty years, and the rural poor out in the sticks, or Farming / Ranching country probably won't be able to use it till the NEXT "big thing" comes along and the Hydrogen fuel cell cars start showing up in the "Buy Here Pay here", we finance anybody lots in about three decades.  Even then, HOW will it make sense to people in rural West Texas, Rural New Mexico, Rural Wyoming, Rural East Montana, or the Rural areas of the Dakotas, where a filling station is a 150 to 200 mile round trip away. The Hydrogen filling stations are going to HAVE to be as plentiful as conventional filling stations are now, AND the average minimum wage worker is going to have to be able to AFFORD one for this to ever work the way that it CAN. THAT may take half a century.
Niri Te
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Meuiama Tsamsiyu (Toruk Makto)

Firstly, the average minimum wage employee is classed out of this type of thing (I do believe in the American class system. I call it American Aristocracy)

As far as getting the stuff into the rural US.. I do not actually see that as being a problem as they can simply transport the hydrogen chemicals in bottles just like they transport anhydrous to your every day farm for the seasonal tilling. No, I see it as actually bring things closer in, in the rural areas. Home delivery, if you will.

Would certainly love to talk to you more on many of your topics... I am a veteran as well, Afghanistan... was supposed to be on a plane the day the towers came down. 9/11. But let's stay on topic here :)



"He who destroys a good book kills reason itself." -John Milton

"Mathematics is the gate and key to the sciences." -Roger Bacon

"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

Kamean

Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.