protect African lions

[Kì'eyawn]

Go here to sign a petition asking the U.S. government to extend the protections of the Endangered Species Act to the African lion.

[Ku'rända]

But there aren't any African Lions in the US? o.o;

[Kì'eyawn]

But there aren't any African Lions in the US? o.o;

Yes, but the majority of hunters going to Africa to hunt lions are Americans.  If the lion were listed as an endangered species, my understanding is it would become illegal for Americans to go hunt lions on safari in Africa.  At the very least, it would make it significantly more difficult and more expensive; and it would definitely make it illegal to bring any "trophies" home.

[Ku'rända]

Here's a problem:  While I don't like the idea of killing animals for sport-  Lions are -not- endangered according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature.  Also, I do believe that the US cannot actively stop people from going over to a country where it is legal and shoot them.  The US can only (and currently does) impose a ban on importing anything listed as 'threatened species' into it's border. (like that lady from Mexico who tried to bring in Iguana meat)

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

But why wait until they're low in numbers to protect them? We need efforts to keep them at a HEALTHY population,  not just simply surviving/eeking by when they finally become endangered.

You know, pay it forward.

[Ku'rända]

But why wait until they're low in numbers to protect them? We need efforts to keep them at a HEALTHY population,  not just simply surviving/eeking by when they finally become endangered.

You know, pay it forward.

Then you'll get nuts going "OH!  Well, let's not eat chickens or cows, because they're a healthy population!" D:  x_x; bah

[Kì'eyawn]

Here's a problem:  While I don't like the idea of killing animals for sport-  Lions are -not- endangered according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature.  Also, I do believe that the US cannot actively stop people from going over to a country where it is legal and shoot them.  The US can only (and currently does) impose a ban on importing anything listed as 'threatened species' into it's border. (like that lady from Mexico who tried to bring in Iguana meat)

You're correct that, by the rules of the IUCN, the lions' numbers are not low enough yet—"yet" being the operative word.  But if you take a look at the population stats, they're in a population crash that, if left unchecked, will take them across that threshold very soon. 

And no, the U.S. can't stop people from going to a country where something illegal here is legal and doing that thing—but it can make it very, very difficult—and expensive.  TBH, people who go to Africa to bag the "Big Five" already are paying unbelievable quantities of money to do so.  But tì'efumì oeyä, if bringing their tattered carcasses "trophies" back home became illegal, i'm hopeful that would dissuade just enough of them to mitigate the issue.

As an aside, my biggest environmental issue with "sport"-hunting (don't get me started on my other issues with hunting) is that it's ecologically backward:  In the wild, hunting carnivores take out the old, the sick, the weak, etc.  They are the vector for selection pressure; they cull the herd.  Human hunters, on the other hand, want to kill young, virile, impressive-looking animals for the best-looking trophies—exactly the animals natural selection wouldn't take out, the ones nature would have left to breed.  Now, with some species in some countries, there are rules to attempt to mitigate that—banning killing animals under a certain age/size, for example.  But somehow i get the impression the SA safari business doesn't check how old a lion is before they give their clients the go-ahead.  And since there aren't a whole lot of things out there that kill apex predators, it's entirely possible even the relatively few hunters who do go to Africa to bag themselves a big cat are acting as an artificial selection pressure on the population.

And, lest we forget, when you kill the dominant male of a pride of lions (and it looks to me like the majority of lion-hunters want to bag a male, with his impressive mane), that leaves the pride open to be taken over by a new male.  And what's the first thing a male lion does when he takes over a pride?  Kills all the cubs of his predecessor.  So when you shoot one male lion, you don't just kill that lion; you kill him, and all of his juvenile offspring.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

I wish something like saving the lion could be this simple.

Putting the lion on IUCN Appendix 1 would be about the worst thing that could happen to the lion. This could all but guarantee its extinction in the wild. And quite possibly in captivity.

First, a little background on lion hunting.

There are many species of animals that can be hunted quite successfully, often with tangible  benefits to the species in question. However, there are some unique problems with lion hunting that most other species do not experience.

Lions live in prides, with typically 1-4 adult males, and 3-30 females with their cubs. As long as the male lions are in control, the pride is a safe place for cubs. But when the current crop of males are driven out or killed by new males, these noe males kill all the cubs. This brings the females into heat, and the new male(s) then have a lot of cubs of their sireage. However, while this is happening, the pride cannot reproduce for about 18 months.  Although this is not a serious problem in places where there is a healthy lion population, it is a real problem if the population is not as healthy as it could be.

Hunters typically go after male lions. Shooting a lion that is running a pride will cause new male(s) to move in and take over. They will kill the cubs that are present, and the pride goes reproductively dormant for about 18 months. Thus, taking out lions that are running a pride is a very bad thing. This was first widely documented by Derek and Beverly Joubert in Botswana, and they were able to get Botswana to ban lion hunting for a while.

However, there is another interesting factor about lions that makes properly managed hunting something that does not hurt the survival of the species. Male lions will grow thicker and darker manes as they age. And once an older lion is ousted from a pride, its genetic contribution to the species is fairly low, as they will rarely take over another pride. So, these 'post-pride nomads' just happen to also be the best trophy animals. Dr. Craig Packer has been working on the hunting problem in Tanzania for quite some time, and they have developed a program there to ensure that any lions that are eligible to be hunted are well past their pride days.

South Africa has another solution: hunting ranches. Here, captive, but free- living lions are hunted on ranches that can be as big as the state of Rhode Island. These lion populations are bred under controlled conditions to ensure a steady supply of huntable lions. This kind of ranch hunting does not put any real stress on the wild population there, which is at least somewhat protected. However, these ranches have come under severe attack by animal rights folks for practicing what is called 'canned hunting'. Opponents claim that hunters shoot lions in small pens. This does not happen, as the hunters don't like doing this. (One of my best friends is a lion hunter, and I have talked to people who run these game ranches. They all come to Reno once a year for a convention.) But ranch hunting provides a sustainable 'safety valve' that allows legal hunting withour affecting the wild population. And people still pay a lot to shoot a lion, as these game ranches are very expensive to operate. (They usually host many species of animals besides lions.) The game ranch operators breed lions for their needs, and some have conservation breeding programs as well. And breeding is the opposite of extinction.

A few years back, animal rights groups almost shut down the South African game ranches by passing a 'backhanded ban' on lion hunting. This would have resulted in the needless destruction of some 5,000 lions(!) and the loss of 2,000 jobs across the country. Thankfully, this was stopped.

The IUCN was created by the UN with the belief that if some trade is allowed in threatened species, it actually encourages its conservation by giving that species an economic value. It is one of the few UN treaties that has actually worked, and some species have been brought back from the brink by regulated trade. If you move a species to appendix 1 (endangered), thus ending trade in that species, its entire value then becomes asthetic. A lot of the capitalist drive to preserve the species for posterity goes away, and one must beg like a charity for funds to save the species (or do it through expensive, inefficient government programs).

Here in the 'States, any species on the Cites Appendix 1 list becomes an 'endangered species', and there is much more red tape involved in transporting and breeding these animals. If this sounds counterproductive, it is. A lot of time, people wanting to do animal business will 'stretch' these rules to the limit, and the USDI knows this. (They have themselves made regulatory loopholes because they know the ESA is 'broken'. One such rule is the 'generic tiger exemption', which allows tigers of unknown lineage to be more freely traded and bred. Most tigers outside of the big AZA zoos fall in this category.)

So, reprehensible as it might be to some, lion hunting is valuable because it gives economic value to the lion. It discourages poaching because there is a legal source of lion parts. It creates jobs and brings hard Western money into these poor countries. The key is proper management. It has worked for the whitetail deer here in the US. There is no reason it shouldn't work for lions.

The real problem that is killing the lion (and the tiger, and many other species) is human encroachment. This is much harder to control, as our population is increasing exponentially. In the end, all of these cats will be wiped out by human encroachment. The long-term solution is captive husbandry, as big cats can thrive in captivity. However, forces are trying to stop this, too. As things stand now, if we do not stop human encroachment, and/or eliminate the captive population, the lion could go extinct in our lifetime. And a world without lions would be a really horrible place.

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

It really does speak for the sickness of our culture that that is what we must come to to save an endangered species. What ever happened to the innate value of nature? We, as a species, need a paradigm shift ASAP. That's the only way we'll ever reduce our habitat encroachment of other species, reduce our numbers to sustainable levels, and develop anything close to a harmonious relationship with nature.

The problem though is that we as a species have our collective heads up our asses, and are incredibly slow to change, so I guess things will keep being done by gun barrels and paper in wallets for the time being.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

It really does speak for the sickness of our culture that that is what we must come to to save an endangered species. What ever happened to the innate value of nature? We, as a species, need a paradigm shift ASAP. That's the only way we'll ever reduce our habitat encroachment of other species, reduce our numbers to sustainable levels, and develop anything close to a harmonious relationship with nature.

The problem though is that we as a species have our collective heads up our asses, and are incredibly slow to change, so I guess things will keep being done by gun barrels and paper in wallets for the time being.

I guess this is the price we are paying for having the smarts to overcome natural selection. 

My belief is that the world is here for us. But the second half of that is rarely talked about-- we are also stewards of the world and need to take good care of it, including the lions 

[Toruk Makto]

The problem though is that we as a species have our collective heads up our asses, and are incredibly slow to change, so I guess things will keep being done by gun barrels and paper in wallets for the time being.

IMO, it's simpler than that. There are just too damned many people on the planet. For whatever reasons, humans are incapable of limiting the population to sustainable levels. So we keep trying to fix the symptoms from the wrong end by trying to find ways to force nature to provide more than is safe for the planet.

Apologies for being OT. I need to start trying to be a better role model about that...

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

The problem though is that we as a species have our collective heads up our asses, and are incredibly slow to change, so I guess things will keep being done by gun barrels and paper in wallets for the time being.

IMO, it's simpler than that. There are just too damned many people on the planet. For whatever reasons, humans are incapable of limiting the population to sustainable levels. So we keep trying to fix the symptoms from the wrong end by trying to find ways to force nature to provide more than is safe for the planet.

Apologies for being OT. I need to start trying to be a better role model about that...

No Marki, I think you are quite on track. Convincing people not to breed is a nearly impossible task, though. (I have a friend with some radical ideas about solving that problem in a very unique and positive way, but it is not 'PG rated' to discuss here. He, too is a lionkeeper.) And guns and little portraits of Presidents have been responsible for problems far more horrific than the extinction of flagship predators.....

[Lora Syulang]

In Africa there is another predator in major danger. It is almost instinct. They are treated as pests, killed at sight, trapped or hit with cars. Humans are to blame for 90-95% of mortality and there is hardly an outcry because it does not hold the same aesthetic or trophy prize value as other predators. It is the Painted Wolf, African Wild Dog , Lycaon Pictus.
The wild dog likes to live outside of assigned protected areas set aside for wildlife ( thus putting them close to human habitation ) because of competition with lions and hyenas for resources. They are very successful hunters but mostly have kills stolen off of them. They are mostly nomadic in nature ( the territries they hold are more vast then the average predator ) so also need lots of space. You can't put wild life and nature in a box and expect it live according to how you see fit. It will not change for you.