Christian Letter to Eywa

Started by Eltu Lefngap Makto, February 21, 2011, 12:27:05 AM

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Eltu Lefngap Makto

So the only absolute is that there ought not be any absolutes?  Seriously, I'm not a debater who goose-steps with a Charlie Chaplin mustache on the side.  :P

Coming back to our topic, is it not true that there are those (especially here on this forum) genuinely think Gaia/Eywa is the correct way to regard our planet, and that Avatar is a thin-metaphor for humanity's better course?  I know there are many threads like "Prayers to Eywa" here.
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Eyawng te Klltepayu

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 03:13:21 AM
So the only absolute is that there ought not be any absolutes?  Seriously, I'm not a debater who goose-steps with a Charlie Chaplin mustache on the side.  :P


I just don't think those words should be capitalized.
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

Kan oe trro fnivan lì'fyat leNa'vi frapoto a foru ke sunängu rel arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx.

ExLibrisMortis

Quote from: Tirey Hawnuyu on February 22, 2011, 01:13:01 AM
Your right, free will. You a believer?

*nods*
Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 01:55:38 AM
ExLibrisMortis, I take your point, but do you get mine?  The Na'vi worship Eywa (just like primitive humans worshiped Gaia or 100 other Mother Goddesses) as creator and sustainer of Life.  At most, she is a very advanced process which manages life on Pandora.  But she owes her existence to something else and isn't responsible mechanisms she maintains.  The real God of the Universe invented space-time, matter, energy, physics, ethics, love and life.  Compared to Him, Eywa (whatever she is) is ultimately on the same level as we are, relatively speaking.  She is not Creator, she is part of Creation.

Yup, I do, I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that is she capable of having the consciousness level to recognize that she is being worshiped. Also, how is a person, ignorant of God to know not only His rules as He's laid out, but also His existence?

Human No More

Quote from: Eyawng te Klltepayu on February 22, 2011, 02:07:29 AM
I don't think that there is much to gain from this. Eywa is a sentient superorganism worshipped as a deity. Human concepts of a deity are different because we do not live on a planet with lifeforms like that to act as a nucleus for human beliefs.

When Jake speaks of humans having 'killed their mother,' he does so metaphorically. The human connection to nature is to tsaheylu as Gaia is to Eywa.
Oe mllte... except that Gaia is not a provable physical being in the same way, but one particular subset of human mythology. Completely agreed on the part about human concepts though.

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 03:13:21 AM
So the only absolute is that there ought not be any absolutes?  Seriously, I'm not a debater who goose-steps with a Charlie Chaplin mustache on the side.  :P

Coming back to our topic, is it not true that there are those (especially here on this forum) genuinely think Gaia/Eywa is the correct way to regard our planet, and that Avatar is a thin-metaphor for humanity's better course?  I know there are many threads like "Prayers to Eywa" here.
It isn't meant as a literal 'a sentient organism exists on Earth', just that humans should respect the environment.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Eltu Lefngap Makto

It seems uneven to me that someone would condemn capitalizing "Absolute" and "Ultimate" but have no problem with "Prayers to Eywa" whom we all admit doesn't exist outside of the movie.  Basing your life on the reason anything exists strikes me as much smarter than the "re-prioritization of environmental respect".  People who extend any effort towards grokking Eywa are missing a chance to ponder the highest meaning of life.
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Amaya

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 04:12:27 AM
It seems uneven to me that someone would condemn capitalizing "Absolute" and "Ultimate" but have no problem with "Prayers to Eywa" whom we all admit doesn't exist outside of the movie.  Basing your life on the reason anything exists strikes me as much smarter than the "re-prioritization of environmental respect".  People who extend any effort towards grokking Eywa are missing a chance to ponder the highest meaning of life.

Ok I'm going to take a biiiiiig chance here and insert my belief system and then I'm going to leave, and if anyone tells me I'm "going to hell" or tries to "save" me I'm going to be very disappointed.  That hasn't been my usual impression of the forum though, so...

To me, the debate is quite different, because as a Wiccan, my "theory of God/dess" is that all views are correct, simply different interpretations of the divine.  There is no such thing (to me) as a "false" god, and any energy put toward "prayers" for good is energy put to the good.  When people dedicate prayers to Eywa, they are, in some small way, trying to make their voices heard by that parallel force that is the Divine Female here on Earth.  It's nice that you're so secure in your own Faith but always please remember that yours is only one of MANY interpretations and understandings of the Divine, and so long as they adhere to morality (basic morality, not killing for no reason, respecting fellow humans and the animals that share our planet with us in at least some manner) no "religeon" is inherently wrong, not even atheism.

*grin* but, as they say, that's just my UPG  ;)

Eyawng te Klltepayu

Quote from: Human No More on February 22, 2011, 03:42:07 AM

Oe mllte... except that Gaia is not a provable physical being in the same way, but one particular subset of human mythology. .

That's sort of what I was saying. Gaia and the human connection to nature = metaphorical. Eywa and the Na'vi connection to nature = real, physical.
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

Kan oe trro fnivan lì'fyat leNa'vi frapoto a foru ke sunängu rel arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx.

Toruk Makto

Something to ponder: In the movie, the "Great Mother doesn't take sides. She only protects the balance of life." This is somewhat removed from many classical interpretations of a diety being a "personal savior" and the relationship of a person with their god or goddess being an intimate one. In this regard, Eywa looks more of a deist construct.

Thoughts?

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Eltu Lefngap Makto

Quote from: Markì on February 22, 2011, 07:45:58 AM
Something to ponder: In the movie, the "Great Mother doesn't take sides. She only protects the balance of life." This is somewhat removed from many classical interpretations of a diety being a "personal savior" and the relationship of a person with their god or goddess being an intimate one. In this regard, Eywa looks more of a deist construct.

Thoughts?

Totally!  That's what I was reaching for!  If Eywa is a Force (like Star Wars) then she shouldn't respond the way she does.  Yet people long for the personal, not the impersonal, so she is given character.  It's a real mixed bag.
'Ivong, Na'vi!

ExLibrisMortis

#29
Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 11:19:19 AM
Quote from: Markì on February 22, 2011, 07:45:58 AM
Something to ponder: In the movie, the "Great Mother doesn't take sides. She only protects the balance of life." This is somewhat removed from many classical interpretations of a diety being a "personal savior" and the relationship of a person with their god or goddess being an intimate one. In this regard, Eywa looks more of a deist construct.

Thoughts?

Totally!  That's what I was reaching for!  If Eywa is a Force (like Star Wars) then she shouldn't respond the way she does.  Yet people long for the personal, not the impersonal, so she is given character.  It's a real mixed bag.

Is her responses one of a conscious being making a conscious decision, or that of an entity just kicking in survival mechanisms? The way Marki puts it is that the only reason why she is considered to be a deity, and in turn worshiped, is because the Na'vi revere her to be as such. She is not asking to be worshiped, she has not commanded them to worship her, the Na'vi are just doing that. On top of that, are the Na'vi really worshiping her, or are they just hold a deep reverence for her?

From your original post you seem to be concerned in the fact that Eywa is essentially causing the Na'vi to break one of the Commandments, that being the one about other Gods. Yet, how can a being ignorant to the existence of God, and in extension all his commandments, be held accountable to laws they do not know of? How can they obey something they know not to exist? If God is a fair and just God, would he do that?

So, I've asked a lot of questions to try and stimulate thought into maybe people discovering my opinion on the matter. To dispense with the vagueness, here we go. I believe Eywa to be the collective conscious of Pandora. Over the time that Pandora came to be in existence, more and more trees connected and put their levels of consciousness into one big one. It's like the internet almost, made up of tons of individual computers, but when you link those computers towards the completion of a single project, its like have a giant planet-wide brain accomplishing one goal. The Na'vi, in relation to Eywa/Pandora, have evolved to a point where they've become independent of the rest of the planet, in terms of their thought process. Back to Eywa, it is my belief that she is not a being that makes conscious decisions, but more a being that will react to her situation with genetically built in defense mechanisms. Like your body with white blood cells, when you catch an illness, you don't actively tell your body to send white blood cells to the trouble region, it just automatically does it. That's what I viewed with the battle scene at the end of the movie, as a central point in her collective conscious was in danger, the collective conscious sent parts of it to go and attack the threat.

Makes sense?


EDIT:
Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 04:12:27 AM
It seems uneven to me that someone would condemn capitalizing "Absolute" and "Ultimate" but have no problem with "Prayers to Eywa" whom we all admit doesn't exist outside of the movie.  Basing your life on the reason anything exists strikes me as much smarter than the "re-prioritization of environmental respect".  People who extend any effort towards grokking Eywa are missing a chance to ponder the highest meaning of life.
You gotta remember that everyone has their free agency to choose what they wish. It is not for us to judge or condemn, but only to inform. Once information is passed, it is up to the individual to choose.

Toruk Makto

 If memory serves, it was the sawtute (Norm for one) that labeled Eywa as a "deity". I have been going through the film in my head (didn't actually watch it again) and I can't recall anywhere that the Na'vi act on or refer to Eywa as more than just the "Great Mother". They do have ritual, but that could just as easily be a psychological enabler that allows easier tsaheyl si communication with Eywa (and now that I see that in print, that sounds like what happens in human religion, but I will blithely ignore it for now). In the context of the film, there aren't any particularly strong mystical overtones that I can discern.

Markì

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Eyawng te Klltepayu

#31
Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 22, 2011, 04:12:27 AM
It seems uneven to me that someone would condemn capitalizing "Absolute" and "Ultimate" but have no problem with "Prayers to Eywa" whom we all admit doesn't exist outside of the movie.  
I haven't even seen that thread. I generally regard anything like that as being light-hearted silliness.
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

Kan oe trro fnivan lì'fyat leNa'vi frapoto a foru ke sunängu rel arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx.

Kì'eyawn

Kaltxì ma smuktu,

This is a fascinating discussion, and i'd like to join in, if i may. 

In the interest of full disclosure, i'm not Christian, so my theological beliefs are likely to differ somewhat.  That aside, if you'll permit me, i'd like to share my perceptions of how Eywa might fit into the "Big Picture."

I believe that the death of Jake's brother was not an accident.  Events proceeded the way they did so that Jake would end up on Pandora.  You might say he was called.

From a purely scientific perspective, whether we want to refer to Eywa—that is, the apparent consciousness (or something like it) that has manifested as a result of the very unique properties of Pandora's biosphere—as a "person" or "being" is a matter of taste.  An ant colony functions, as a cohesive whole, with something very like a will and purpose; but we would never call a colony of ants a "being."  We recognize an individual organism as a "being," and any larger level of organization as something...else.  Simply because we ourselves are individual organisms, that is the level at which we can perceive (and conceive of) consciousness.  As i see it, Eywa is some sort of collective consciousness, a higher-order emergent construct resulting from the intercommunication of the beings on Pandora.  What it is "like" to be Eywa, i think, will have to be a question for Nagel  ;)

But can Eywa not be an instrument of God?  If Eywa lacks an experience of an individual, unified self (which is what i believe is the case), then "she" can't very well be faulted for allowing worship.  But if she experiences no sense of self, i think that would make her uniquely qualified to perfectly obey God's will.

Now, the Na'vi clearly know that Pandora is not the only thing in the sky—Polyphemus, for starters, is rather obviously there.  And their encounter with humans will have shown them beyond a doubt that there are other spheres floating around in the sky with life on them. 

So, the question might then occur to the Na'vi:  If Jake only came to Pandora because of very particular circumstances, how did those circumstances come about—who called him?  Either Eywa reaches farther than should be possible (i.e., "she" can affect affairs even in places to which she is not physically connected), or there is Something that is greater than Eywa...

I would love to know how the encounter with humans has changed the Na'vi people's conception of the cosmos and their place in it...   :)
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Human No More

...alternatively, Tom was killed by chance :P
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Kì'eyawn

Quote from: Human No More on February 23, 2011, 01:10:11 PM
...alternatively, Tom was killed by chance :P

HRH, of course, that's also a possibility.  This is just how i choose to interpret the story  :D
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Toruk Makto

The "Prayers to Eywa" may be more than just light hearted or silly. Even just for simple cathartic reasons, being able to state your cares and concerns where another can hear or read them provides a release of emotional tension whether it is to a priest in a small room, or in a forum to a fictional being.

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Na'vin Nos'feratxu

However fictional Markì, it defines us and even brings us together.
Thats why I am so drawn here.

The people here I have come to respect greatly.
I have never met so many good people, who take the time out of their day to help one another.

I believe we were brought here, together, believing in what Eywa stands for.
However fictional Eywa may be, the idea is real.

In a way, Eywa has brought us together.

   
NotW#82

Toruk Makto

I never thought of it that way, but what a great concept!  Eywa is a focus for sawtute as well.

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Kì'eyawn

There's no reason fiction can't change a person's life as much as fact.

If you'll forgive the reference, there's a bit of dialogue in one of the Harry Potter books where Harry asks if a certain event is happening in his head, to which a character replies, "Of course it is happening inside your head, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

The way i see it, everything has to pass through the filter of your senses and mind on its way from the outside world into your conscious experience.  So, anything happening on the "in-side" of the big bone around your brain has an equally powerful effect on who you are and what you choose to do; it doesn't get any more "real" than that.

So if your encounter with Eywa, courtesy James Cameron, changed your life and your world (which i gather it has, for many), then i say in at least that sense Eywa is real.

This community certainly is real, anyway  :D
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Na'vin Nos'feratxu

The only way Eywa can really exist, is in the hearts and minds of us.
We all enjoy the language, we enjoy the culture, we enjoy each other.
We all are consciously making efforts to better our world to mimic that of Pandora.

Otherwise....why are we here?

We...are the Na'vi of Earth.



   
NotW#82