Conflict: Unoriginal?

Started by Meynari Ke'nawm, December 22, 2010, 10:49:37 PM

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Meynari Ke'nawm

When the general population thinks of Avatar, the first word that come to their mind is "pretty" and the second is usually "unoriginal". The first is most definitely true, but I have a counter-argument for the second. The most stereotypic statement that describes Avatar is "Pocahontas In Space". The original script of Avatar was completed in 1994, whereas Pocahontas came out in 1995. Although the script for Pocahontas was probably created around that time or before, I doubt James Cameron had secret access to Disney files. Although the Native American movie theme had already been going on for a while at that point (Dances With Wolves), it definitely puts it ahead of some very popular modern-day films of which Avatar has been accused of copying. Just a thought.

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Ekirä

Pocahontas is an old story....it's not just a Disney movie. ;)

Meynari Ke'nawm

Quote from: Ekirä on December 22, 2010, 11:05:04 PM
Pocahontas is an old story....it's not just a Disney movie. ;)
Good point... But was it beefed up for the movie?
P.S. I don't think Jake takes Neytiri back to Earth where she dies, though. :)
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Eyawng te Klltepayu

I think this is one of many elements in a big melting pot.

Here's a quote from Jordu Schell about the process of creating Neytiri
Quote

I remember he very much liked the face of a girl named Q'Orianka Kilcher, who starred in The New World, which was a Pocahontas movie with Colin Farrell.
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Quote from: Meynari Ke'nawm on December 22, 2010, 11:08:28 PM
Quote from: Ekirä on December 22, 2010, 11:05:04 PM
Pocahontas is an old story....it's not just a Disney movie. ;)
Good point... But was it beefed up for the movie?
P.S. I don't think Jake takes Neytiri back to Earth where she dies, though. :)

Yeah, I'd be disappointed if the story followed the actual storylines of Pocahontas' life.
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Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

With Avatar IMO only the basics of the storyline are unoriginal but as for story details and Pandora itself I find to be pretty original. Originality for me is never really an issue for movies, it's all about delivery and Avatar truly excels at that. Besides, the assumption originality = quality means that any remake ever automatically is horrid regardless of anything else in the movie.
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Quote from: Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn on December 25, 2010, 07:58:11 PM
Besides, the assumption originality = quality means that any remake ever automatically is horrid regardless of anything else in the movie.

Well, in some cases that originality = quality statement does show true. Take for example the TV show "V". That is one show that never should have been remade.
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Txontaw

This is the major complaint that the haters have, that Avatar is a total ripoff of several films.

Obviously, if you do the research, Avatar predates those; the script was written (like the OP said) in 1994.

However, the fact that it was written in 1994 may be the entire problem. The plot would have been a hit in 1994. However, attempting to take a 90's plot into this day and age may have been what prompted the haters.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Eyawng te Klltepayu

Found an excellent review of Avatar which touches on this subject here


QuoteHeinz Zwack

I missed one thing in all the comments I have read so far: Would somebody please say that Avatar is a great movie! I think it has all the ingredients of good Science Fiction, including the ,,Sense of Wonder" that I first felt when reading my first SF in the Fifties. Combining a number of typical SF tropes with a good romantic story (Pocahontas) and innovative use of technology that will make movie history certainly deserves praise and not too much – pardon me – nitpicking.

I love SF, it changed my outlook on life when I was young (I am German and was born in 1936, i.e. In Nazi Germany). SF was my incentive for learning English (school helped, but that came later, Superman and Tom Corbett were first) and it helped me earn part of my livelihood (I have translated into German about 250 SF novels, from Asimov through Zelazny).

I suppose that qualifies me to add my five cents worth to this discussion.

To me Avatar is real SF – and to a much higher degree that some of the thinly disguised fairy tales or soaps screened as SF, and certainly more entertaining than Vampires or other Horror Fantasy stuff, so kudos to the man who did it, and did it with panache.

Let me repeat what some other contributors said: there are 10,000 SF tropes out there, that all writers (and moviemakers) use, the only difference to mainstream literature and moviemaking is that the SF Universe has not been defined by history but is a fluid one....or is someone plagiarizing by using hyperspace or wormholes (just to name two out of a hundred methods of traveling) in his or her story? Or do you call it stealing, if somebody writes up – for the umpteenth time – what happened at the OK corral?

So, please enjoy more and be less critical, SF is supposed to be fun.

Best wishes from Munich

Heinz Zwack
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Txontaw

That is a good review. Like I have said before, you need to let yourself experience the movie. If you just try to watch the movie, you'll be dissatisfied. That's not the point of a Sci-fi.
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Quote from: Txontaw on December 28, 2010, 12:19:12 AM
This is the major complaint that the haters have, that Avatar is a total ripoff of several films.

Obviously, if you do the research, Avatar predates those; the script was written (like the OP said) in 1994.

However, the fact that it was written in 1994 may be the entire problem. The plot would have been a hit in 1994. However, attempting to take a 90's plot into this day and age may have been what prompted the haters.

But the limits of technology being what they are he had to wait until now, therefore giving fuel to the haters. But we now have karma on our side  ;D
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Txontaw

Quote from: Tukruyä Tsamsiyu on December 28, 2010, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: Txontaw on December 28, 2010, 12:19:12 AM
This is the major complaint that the haters have, that Avatar is a total ripoff of several films.

Obviously, if you do the research, Avatar predates those; the script was written (like the OP said) in 1994.

However, the fact that it was written in 1994 may be the entire problem. The plot would have been a hit in 1994. However, attempting to take a 90's plot into this day and age may have been what prompted the haters.

But the limits of technology being what they are he had to wait until now, therefore giving fuel to the haters. But we now have karma on our side  ;D

Yup. :P

"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


archaic

#12
Oel Eywa.
Mankind has two basic stories that it comes back to again and again.
1 The quest:- Fate chooses some nobody to fight some cause 'The hero' they start in the ordinary world, either they go to a place of strange powers and events, or it comes to them. The hero usually faces some kind of task(s) and/or trial(s), either alone, or sometimes with assistance. There should be a severe challenge, one that they loose, which  results in a significant discovery often important self-knowledge, the significance of which is often missed by the audience. This portion of the story reinforces that the hero is as fallible as the audience and helps them bond. The story usually takes a tangent here that leads to a final battle, in which the outcome of the previously lost encounter is significant. The hero must then decide whether to return with the prize (return to the ordinary world where the story began), often facing challenges on the return journey. If the hero is successful in returning, the prize may be used to improve their world. At some point the hero will meet a teacher/wizard/wise person, who is often some kind of outcast, to start with they often distrust each other, but that fades as the story progresses. There is usually some kind of soft option offered to them which they have to turn down.

Examples ..... Harry Potter part 1, Star-wars episodes 1 and 4, Lord of the rings, HTTYD, and Avatar


Flick                Hero       Wise person          Challenge lost/knowledge gained       Soft option,

Avatar             Jake        Dr Augustine         First encounter with Toruk                Go back to earth for new legs
Harry Potter     Harry      Dumbledore          First meeting with Fluffy                   Let teachers fight Voldermort
Star-wars 1      Anakin    Obi-Wan Kenobi     Pod race                                         Stay on Coruscant
Star-wars 4      Luke       Obi-Wan Kenobi                 Can't remember, too long since I watched it
LOTR               Frodo      Gandalf                 Meeting with ring wraiths                 Go beyond the eastern sea
HTTYD             Hiccup    Toothless               Toothless takes them to nest            Kill the monstrous nightmare

Pasha, an Avatar story, my most recent fanfic, Avatar related, now complete.

The Dragon Affair my last fanfic, non Avatar related.

Txontaw

I thought there were four basic stories... I'll have to find the article I read.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch