Native Population Displacement Issues

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

I'm not qualified to fully answer that, but many of the wrongs committed by the US state have never been acknowledged, much less atoned for.

Sorry for sounding like a cold bastard, but i'm not sure that's our generation's concern. I mean, i, at least, wouldn't want to be held responsible for the atrocities my ancestors did commit  . What do the european decendants of america really owe the native americans? I think it's a little absurd to hold someone responsible for the sins of their father  . I even feel offended as a white sometimes, because it seems so many people of so many cultures feels i owe them something  !

How is this our generation's concern?  Because many of the native peoples affected ARE STILL AFFECTED.  Yes, there isn't outright warfare anymore, but even until the children of my own generation (born in the late 1970s) Native children in both Canada and the US were sent to residential schools (I think they called them "indian boarding schools" or something similar in the states) where they were forcibly stripped of their culture, punished for speaking their own language, and VERY often physically, mentally, and sexually abused.

It is still more difficult for Native people to get good-paying, high-profile jobs, and it's still (even with support) more difficult for them to get higher education, although, of course, this isn't always to do with anything the government or the rest of the population so much as the pervasive culture within the native communities themselves of thinking less of themselves.

Anyway, I would also like to point out that I say this as a "white woman" who has never been through any of those difficulties I mentioned.  Anyway, just keep in mind that things are not as far in the past as the rest of the world might think.

Perhaps, but is it really moral that people today have to clean up a 200+ years old mess which none of those who created it are still alive. There's no ``criminals´´, so to speak, left and therefore there's nowhone to prosecute and be held responsible, and therefore nowhone is forced to deal with this. That's not to say that people today shouldn't help the native americans back up on their feet but i don't think anyone should be forced to help, as that would lead to people helping others involutary, and therefore they'd do it without heart. Maybe i'm too naive and idealistic, but i wish that nowhone could force someone else to help a third part in the need of help. People shouldn't be forced to help, they should do it themselves because they are good.  

[Amaya]

Noone is being "forced" to help, at least not here.  There are government initiatives in place to help them get on their feet, and there are ongoing treaty negotiations, but, well, put it this way: it would be NICE if everyone was "good" and did what they could to help, but the number of different ways there needs to be help done are massive, and it'll take time.

When you live close, within the situation, it's different than when you live far away and can look at everything through a long-distance lens.

[Lolet]

My grandparents live on a reservation. Their next door neighbors are Indians. They say that the government does help out the Indians quite a bit, but many times they don't use the money properly and buy a horse instead of something useful. And they keep on having babies they can't really afford. Not making a generalization about all Indians, of course.

[Amaya]

no, but you make a good point.  That being: Just throwing money at someone doesn't necessarily solve their issues.  It's that old "give a man a fish" adage, really.

[Lolet]

Once someone actually told me to go pay all the black members of my family, for slavery days. It was odd. 

I don't really know a whole lot about native issues, other than the ones that come up in the news. But I have always admired the people who turn their native american art into a business. Very smart.

[Txura Rolyu]

I wish that the Natives could see themselves as something to be admired. They are seldom ever seen and if I were able to make friends with one I think it would be super fun. They do deserve a bit better life than what they have, but they have been left to making gambling casinos, like the couple that are out here in SoCal, to make good money.

I am not entirely certain what they can do about making a better life for themselves. Maybe letting go of some of that hatred against everyone who forced them away from their homes. They do have a right to be mad, but they should retain their religious views and start making their way out into the rest of the community rather than sitting on the reservation all the time.

[archaic]

[Rant]Why should one group of people continue to live in luxury when the people their ancestors stole the land from, exterminated the food from and finally ethnically cleansed from their homes, continue to lead lives not so far from abject poverty in many cases?

America enjoys the highest standard of living on the planet. It gained this position partly by theft.

Theft of land, resources and theft of intellectual property. Before Britain lost its colonies in America, it used them as a convenient dumping ground for deporting criminals to. Later, many were only too happy to fight for the independence movement. Some went on to help shape the future nation. Is it any wonder that so much criminality pervaded early US behavior, and continues to drive parts of foreign policy decision.
Guantanamo is an example of cynical and ruthless exploitation of loopholes in a string of international treaties signed by the US. By and large it is only proper gander swallowing US citizens who believe that it's existence is acceptable. The bulk of the rest of the human race is disgusted by it.
Civilians captured and held indefinably with out trial or even being charged with specific offenses, no opportunity to accept or refute allegations of criminality (intended or committed). How would the US regard other another country which did this to it's own and other nations nations? I wont even touch the subject of alleged wholesale and systematic human rights abuses and violations, and torture.


Given the seemingly unending supply of dirt against the America, is it any wonder that they feel moved to create armies of AI forumites to spread and nurture pro US sentiment?

I'm not anti American, I just wish they'd stop pretending that they are the universal good guy's, stop lecturing everyone else about how great they are. I wish they'd learn to comply with international treaties they sign in the same way that they expect everyone else to. Basically I'm sick of America being the violent and unpredictable bully in the global playground.
American dream? Wake up and smell the bull _ _ _ _![/Rant]

[ExLibrisMortis]

Funny how you believe that its America's doing for all that... haha... One name: Rothschild

The American Dream By The Provocateur Network

The best 30 minutes you'd ever spend watching.


I guess I should also add that no matter what time of the history of future of this world, there will always be an "America" out there. At least the way in which you have described. There will always be some sort of entity that becomes the power of whatever region, nation, continent, world.

This personifies my opinion when other countries criticize america.

http://satwcomic.com/stop-your-meddling

[Human No More]

SATW is brilliant, but that one is more how many Americans wish things would be. As it is, then people will generally be fine with their independence, America is not actually the world police.

Anyway, back on topic - I agree that a lot more needs to be done, not just in America but elsewhere in the world as well. I don't know much about Hawaii, but I know that in many other cases, there has been huge abuse of native people, and that does need to change. There will not "always be an America", - there HAS usually been one in history, but 'it always was' is never a valid excuse to keep something the same way without a real justification.

[Txura Rolyu]

Great yotube link there.

Lets paint the picture here... the Fed Reserve and such is the RDA. We have the "unobtanium" that they want... we need to kick them out. Srak?

[Lolet]

Great yotube link there.

Lets paint the picture here... the Fed Reserve and such is the RDA. We have the "unobtanium" that they want... we need to kick them out. Srak?

I'm afraid I don't follow..   

[ExLibrisMortis]

Anyway, back on topic - I agree that a lot more needs to be done, not just in America but elsewhere in the world as well. I don't know much about Hawaii, but I know that in many other cases, there has been huge abuse of native people, and that does need to change. There will not "always be an America", - there HAS usually been one in history, but 'it always was' is never a valid excuse to keep something the same way without a real justification.

Hawaii has had its exact share of abuses on the Native people. But the problem is two-fold really.

First, there is and always will be an entity the seeks to assert its authority over the weaker. Why is this? Its the Survival of the fittest mentality. The stronger will always survive, and the majority of the time it is because cause the stronger has learned how to exploit the weaker, whether that weaker be his environment or others around him, to his benefit. There has been no point in history where some culture, somewhere in the world, has not tried to assert power and authority over another. That's just plain historical fact. It's human nature to do as such.

Secondly, those within the afflicted community, in this case the natives, have the great tendency to keep not only themselves down, but not allow for others to rise up out of the "ghetto", as the term goes. I personally have observed this in the three separate "native" communities that I have been blessed to find myself involved in. First off, the Hawaiian Natives who live in the "ghetto" areas of Hawaii. For all you tourists, thats the parts of the Island that you have not been. Second, I served a mission in Gerogia, the state, where I worked with a lot of people of African descent. Thirdly, I live here in Arizona, and have worked with many people of both Hispanic descent, a good portion of them being illegal immigrants, and also the Native Indian Tribes that exist in this area. In every single instance, they have come to a state of being where they keep themselves down, along with the chances of others to get up and get out. Also, I might add, they tend to expertly exploit their positions into guilting other people into getting what they deem they "need". I.E. Reparations, Government handouts, Exoneration from Sentences, etc, etc.

You want to change this? Well you'll have a really hard time in doing so, for the two reason mentioned above.

Also, these government handout programs do nothing more than keep those people from ever rising out of their position either. They give them just enough to buy their votes. You don't believe me? Enjoy another Youtube clip where one of our greatest presidents lay out, with hard facts, just how inefficient these social programs always are. Also, as you watch this, ask yourself, whats so different then than today?

"A Time for Choosing" by Ronald Reagan

[archaic]

Bangs head against wall. Truly, American inability to see itself with the eye's of others. I despair!


And as I said The Brits used to occupy the position now held by the US. To be fair, France, Germany, Holland, Portugal, Spain and others were just as guilty of equivalent misbehavior.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So has China, So has Russia, So has Rome/Roman Empire, So has the Catholic church, So has Germany, prior to and including the Nazi's, so has the Incans, so has the many native American tribes, So has tribes in Africa, past AND present, so has the Sunni's/Shiites, so has Genghis Khan... I mean, you should get the point.

I wish they'd learn to comply with international treaties they sign in the same way that they expect everyone else to.

No one, in the world, does this more than America does. With -ALL- (Keyword: ALL) treaties considered, no one else does this more than America. Despite the fact that over half of the treaties we have signed are illegal and technically void by our laws, because of the way in which the treaties were made.

[archaic]

So has China, So has Russia, So has Rome/Roman Empire, So has the Catholic church, So has Germany, prior to and including the Nazi's, so has the Incans, so has the many native American tribes, So has tribes in Africa, past AND present, so has the Sunni's/Shiites, so has Genghis Khan... I mean, you should get the point.

I couldn't agree with you more! Tawtute are pretty scummy like this really. As Someone said "The strong always prey on the weak."
However, this doesn't legitimize it any, a bully is still a bully even if there were bullies before.

I wish they'd learn to comply with international treaties they sign in the same way that they expect everyone else to.

No one, in the world, does this more than America does. With -ALL- (Keyword: ALL) treaties considered, no one else does this more than America.

My point exactly.

Despite the fact that over half of the treaties we have signed are illegal and technically void by our laws, because of the way in which the treaties were made.

I know. Not even the president has the authority to sign international treaties. They have to be approved by congress. Who threw out the Kyoto Protocol, and is likely to always throw out anything that restricts American exploitation of the planet. Returning to the school yard analogy once more:- America signed the dang thing, then announced that it had it's fingers crossed the whole time.

America expects the world to play by American rules, cheats, and then wonders why no one seems to like it?

['Oma Tirea]

So has China, So has Russia, So has Rome/Roman Empire, So has the Catholic church, So has Germany, prior to and including the Nazi's, so has the Incans, so has the many native American tribes, So has tribes in Africa, past AND present, so has the Sunni's/Shiites, so has Genghis Khan... I mean, you should get the point.

I couldn't agree with you more! Tawtute are pretty scummy like this really. As Someone said "The strong always prey on the weak."

Spoiler

Strong prey on the weak... and nobody does a damn thing.

[Lolet]

So has China, So has Russia, So has Rome/Roman Empire, So has the Catholic church, So has Germany, prior to and including the Nazi's, so has the Incans, so has the many native American tribes, So has tribes in Africa, past AND present, so has the Sunni's/Shiites, so has Genghis Khan... I mean, you should get the point.

I couldn't agree with you more! Tawtute are pretty scummy like this really. As Someone said "The strong always prey on the weak."

Spoiler

Strong prey on the weak... and nobody does a damn thing.

If it benefits us, we're only too willing to look the other way, I suppose.

[Amaya]

it's not all doom and gloom, though:

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Port+Alberni+nulth+celebrate+first+multi+nation+self+government+treaty/4550468/story.html

[ExLibrisMortis]

-snip-

I couldn't agree with you more! Tawtute are pretty scummy like this really. As Someone said "The strong always prey on the weak."
However, this doesn't legitimize it any, a bully is still a bully even if there were bullies before.

You miss the point of Natural Selection. The species of today, whether they be human, animal, or otherwise, THAT EXIST RIGHT NOW, didn't get there without preying on some sort of a "weaker" source. It how you survive. Its how you thrive. Its how you evolve. Even the Na'vi in the movie had to prey on something weaker to survive, thrive, and evolve to where they were. Humans would not be if they did not do as such. All living things must do as much. Whether it be the "tawtute" you so easily disdain, or some other race out there in the galaxy that has the "noble savage" mentality placed upon them, like the Na'vi did.

I wish they'd learn to comply with international treaties they sign in the same way that they expect everyone else to.

No one, in the world, does this more than America does. With -ALL- (Keyword: ALL) treaties considered, no one else does this more than America.

My point exactly.

You missed the point then. No other country, in the world, when all treaties those countries have signed are considered, respects treaties in which they did sign more than America. None other. Mind you, this is only the legal treaties that are signed and ratified by congress. Once again, which is still a better track record than any other country

Despite the fact that over half of the treaties we have signed are illegal and technically void by our laws, because of the way in which the treaties were made.

I know. Not even the president has the authority to sign international treaties. They have to be approved by congress. Who threw out the Kyoto Protocol, and is likely to always throw out anything that restricts American exploitation of the planet. Returning to the school yard analogy once more:- America signed the dang thing, then announced that it had it's fingers crossed the whole time.

America expects the world to play by American rules, cheats, and then wonders why no one seems to like it?

Even the protocol itself states that each of the countries have to ratify it. Just because it was sign means that it has no binding agreements. America is not the only one of the countries that originally signed it that have not abided by it. Almost all of South America, Asia, Africa, and even Europe are no longer obligated either because they too have not ratified it, or they arn't even interested in it anymore. Although America may be contributing 16% of the global production of GhG, the rest of the world, namely China, produces way more GhG's than just America. Also, many american states have begun to implement many different GhG reducing policies. Namely California, the 6th largest economy in the world, has pledged to reduce its carbon emissions to 1990 levels by 2020 with being 80% under 1990 levels by 2050. You take into the account of population growth estimates and all the industry that is -needed- to support said population increase, thats a really noble goal. 

[Redpaintednavi]

You miss the point of Natural Selection. The species of today, whether they be human, animal, or otherwise, THAT EXIST RIGHT NOW, didn't get there without preying on some sort of a "weaker" source. It how you survive. Its how you thrive. Its how you evolve. Even the Na'vi in the movie had to prey on something weaker to survive, thrive, and evolve to where they were. Humans would not be if they did not do as such. All living things must do as much. Whether it be the "tawtute" you so easily disdain, or some other race out there in the galaxy that has the "noble savage" mentality placed upon them, like the Na'vi did.

You oversimplify things and do not get the whole point of natural selection either. Of course different species prey on each other (which is in itself a simplification since some species survive by using resources noone else can use or by living in places where no one else can live) but they do not always prey on each other within their species (except some competition now and then for mates or similar) but survive through cooperation. If not humans had been able to cooperate they would not have lived through the species formative years but ended up extinct a long time ago. Today the lack of cooperation and the conflicts, together with increasing technological ability, actually is a threat.
And one of the countries where people seem to have lost their most of their ability to cooperation is the US, both internationally but also inside US itself. The latter is shown by the fact that US among the richest countries in the world has most inequality and most social problems.