Author Topic: The Avatar bodies and their souls  (Read 854 times)

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Offline Eana Unil

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The Avatar bodies and their souls
« on: March 05, 2017, 09:34:16 pm »
I don't know if such a topic already exists; search didn't spit out any results and if I hereby created a second topic on this, oeru txoa livu ^^

Anyway, have you ever wondered about the souls of the Avatar bodies?
This question spun around my head the last 4 times or so I watched Avatar.

Inside the scene where Jake and Norm get to see their Avatar bodies for the first time, they appear to be unconscious, much like fetuses inside a mother's womb; the body is moving, absorbing nutrients through the "umbilical" cord, so basic brain and body functions are present and working. Great muscle tone and stuff.

But what about a soul? I doubt that the scientists made it to modify those bodies or their genome so that no kind of consciousness was "built" or is inhered by those brains; so what happened to them?

Were they just "overwritten" by the Avatar drivers, were they never able to develop to a point where one could call them a consciousness, were they simply suppressed somehow or even erased?
Either of these options seems incredibly cruel to me.

When there's no link going on between body and driver, the body falls down to the ground unconsciously and remains in this slumber-like state until the driver reconnects. They keep breathing and stuff on their own. Well, they have to...
When Jake made it to pass through the Eye of Eywa and inhere his new body without the need of a link, what happened with the remnants of that soul, if there ever was one?

Or did the scientists really manage to build a human/Na'vi hybrid without a consciousness/soul to a point where just rudiment brain functions are present and working? Just a biological empty "android", an empty shell built after the genome of its driver, waiting to be "filled"?

Offline allrock123

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2017, 11:33:58 pm »
In truth only Cameron can really answer this question.

Best educated guess is the Human created Avatar body's are soulless , otherwise each Avatar body would have its own individual personally and hold insights and advice it could share with its human host driver.

 I will assume the Avatar host body's at least maintains primal control over there root autonomic nervous system to support there life while disconnected from the human driver hosts Consciousness (science language) or the host drivers,  essence of spirit or soul

I am going out there in the assumption that future human technology as Cameron sees it has acquired deeper knowledge of Quantum process , like entanglement theory into practice to enable a host to Avatar body link they are entangled in some way..

The passing through The eye of Eywa  I wont even guess on without Cameron's say,, we will just call it a Soul/Spirit Transference Ceremony Experience Unique to the Na'vi cultural identity as religious/spiritual powers that be on Cameron's Constructed world,, There are distant Refelctions on this Act in some of earths native cultures that speak of a Shaman carrying out a soul retrieval ceremony (in truth a rebounding with ones own deep internal memory's that helps a person better understand who they are)
it is interesting how much research the storywriters have done and it still intrigues me everyday...           


Offline TEAgaming2154

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 08:08:35 am »
Again, only JC could answer this. I believe that in the original Project 880 script, the avatars are lobotomized before the driver connects to them. The script also says that yes, the avatars did have souls before this.
I have yet to finish reading The Science of Avatar. The real answer may be listed in there somewhere. But for now, only JC knows the true answer.
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Offline archaic

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 04:00:17 pm »
I have a feeling that the Avatar bodies are conscious and have their own soul in the 880 script, could be wrong I never did read it all.
In fact, I haven't read any of it at all in several years.
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Offline TEAgaming2154

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 08:31:07 pm »
I think in the 880 script it said that while in orbit above Pandora, Jake's avatar is "decanted," and 880 said that the avatar opened its eyes, wailed, and even reached out and grabbed Jake's arm. So yes, that would say that the avatars did have a little conscienceness, but weak, allowing the driver to control them easily.

Yes, I finished reading The Science of Avatar, and it did say that the avatars have enough conscienceness to run basic body functions like breathing, heart beating, digestion, etc. while the driver is not using the avatar. Other than that, they don't have much.
This is just my answer. I could be totally wrong. Again, only JC knows the real answer.
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2017, 04:45:26 pm »
In truth only Cameron can really answer this question.

Best educated guess is the Human created Avatar body's are soulless , otherwise each Avatar body would have its own individual personally and hold insights and advice it could share with its human host driver.

I will assume the Avatar host body's at least maintains primal control over there root autonomic nervous system to support there life while disconnected from the human driver hosts Consciousness (science language) or the host drivers,  essence of spirit or soul
Interesting question, and tì'eyngìri I agree with allrock123.
Soul of avatar is soul of driver; if driver is not present, avatar goes into "sleep mode", where only basic functions necessary to keep it live runs, but nothing more. He can't do anything and probably can't feel anything (physical feeling like pain, hot, etc., not inner feelings). Avatar gets really living when link with driver is established and in this state behaves and feels as his driver do (or vice versa?).
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Offline allrock123

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 06:17:54 pm »
I understand the original script may of mentioned the Avatar body's started with a soul or independent Consciousness "but" naturally if the film had been presented from this perception ,, the audience would have had to deal with a lot of internal emotional cognitive dissidence (they killed its soul and made it a zombie like drone body to a human host ? ) it would have inspired controversy so is was reflected upon by Cameron before the films release and the story changed (thankfully)   
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 06:21:44 pm by allrock123 »

Offline DrowElfMorwen

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 01:26:27 pm »
I don't want to go into spoilers for myself, but actually, my Avatar comic addresses a side-concern of this very question... and is a VERY big plot point! :D

Offline archaic

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 04:19:39 pm »
There is a subtle hint to this in my Avatar 2 script too.
The Dragon Affair my current fanfic - now complete.

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Machine, my last Avatar related fanfic.

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2019, 04:04:23 pm »
hello, my opinion is that the avatars do not have, and never had a soul of their own. i believe that their brains are in part natural and in part they are controlled by a chip or something like that wich allows communication between the avatar and the link machine (the exact name of it i forget) and when the driver is in the link, the machine somehow makes it so that the soul of the driver controls the avatar and not their human body.

for the passing through the eye of eywa i believe that if there was a microchip it became useless or just got disabled in that moment.

Offline Toliman

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 04:28:08 pm »
hello, my opinion is that the avatars do not have, and never had a soul of their own. i believe that their brains are in part natural and in part they are controlled by a chip or something like that wich allows communication between the avatar and the link machine (the exact name of it i forget) and when the driver is in the link, the machine somehow makes it so that the soul of the driver controls the avatar and not their human body.

for the passing through the eye of eywa i believe that if there was a microchip it became useless or just got disabled in that moment.
I would say that you could be right :)
However as we know, only Cameron know it.

guest17426

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2019, 11:43:04 am »
Honestly i don't know if even Cameron thought about this with so much detail even if he had a definitive answer that would probably bring about even more questions. Even a lifetime would not be enough to answer all the questions

Offline Toliman

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2019, 11:55:50 am »
Honestly i don't know if even Cameron thought about this with so much detail
Yeah, it's question :-\
However I would say that Cameron could think about this (own soul of Avatars or not), I would be surprised if he not...

Offline archaic

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2019, 12:11:01 pm »
In the 880 script it is explicit that they did (but that is not cannon), so I would say that Cameron knows.

I suspect that they do, the reason that it is avoided in Avatar is that it might be seen as too exploitative. The people who fight hardest for Na'vi rights are the same people who are involved with the avatars.


Where would Augustine stand if Selfridge could use that as ammunition against her?

"Parker, when are you going stop abusing the Na'vi? Raping their land and their forest."
"I don't know Grace, maybe when you stop abusing the Narvee. Using a Narvee derived hybrid, a creature with it's own mind, it's own soul, as your own personal exo-suit. Or do you have a get out of jail card because it's 'for science'?"



edit: seems I can't misspell Na'vi correctly! Parker was intended to get it wrong each time, now fixed.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 05:39:30 pm by archaic »
The Dragon Affair my current fanfic - now complete.

The Dragons Clutch, my last fanfic, non Avatar related.

Machine, my last Avatar related fanfic.

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2019, 01:23:34 pm »
hmm that is a good point. more questions will arise for my mind to process

Offline Toliman

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2019, 04:17:37 pm »
Hmm, good idea! I didn't thought about this reason...

"Parker, when are you going stop abusing the Na'vi? Raping their land and their forest."
"I don't know Grace, maybe when you stop abusing the Na'vi. Using a Narvee derived hybrid, a creature with it's own mind, it's own soul, as your own personal exo-suit. Or do you have a get out of jail card because it's 'for science'?
Interesting to imagine.

Offline Eìrä

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Re: The Avatar bodies and their souls
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 01:25:35 pm »
hello, my opinion is that the avatars do not have, and never had a soul of their own. i believe that their brains are in part natural and in part they are controlled by a chip or something like that wich allows communication between the avatar and the link machine (the exact name of it i forget) and when the driver is in the link, the machine somehow makes it so that the soul of the driver controls the avatar and not their human body.

for the passing through the eye of eywa i believe that if there was a microchip it became useless or just got disabled in that moment.
I would say that you could be right :)
However as we know, only Cameron know it.
A big question!!! But Jake...how he could pass through Eywa's Eye if the Avatars have a microchip???
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