Author Topic: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?  (Read 1310 times)

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Offline Ningey

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The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« on: November 28, 2011, 10:13:15 pm »
Kaltxì, ma smuktu!

As I pondered the notion that all life on Pandora is somehow interlinked and networked, the question that inevitably popped up is if the loreyu found virtually in all possible locations and climates could be some sort of sensory organ that notifies Eywa of any creature's movement anywhere on the world.
The primary reason for this is that the loreyu are sensitive to touch and retract into the ground when disturbed (either by direct touch or by any sort of tremor of the ground). Furthermore, since the plants constitute the basic network (electric impulses travel from the roots of one plant to those of another) I'm wondering if the loreyu would be capable of injecting pulses into this network when disturbed (like a nerve cell that is sensitive to touch would "fire" when disturbed).

That would actually provide an explanation for several things seen in the movie (i. e. the 'angtsìk reacting on Jake's presence in the vicinity when he played with the loreyu and suddenly all of them retracted) or why Eywa could direct the aynantang, angtsìk, and salioang to the troops of the RDA that quickly in the battle for the Tree of Souls.


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Offline archaic

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 06:43:52 am »
Possibly.
I've often wondered if all animal species can tsaheylu with Utral Aymokriyä and be aware of their ancestors.
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Offline Ningey

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 09:25:29 am »
The Pandoran animals are well capable of establishing a link to Eywa, and on some occasions this can be seen in the movie.
First, remember the scene in the village of the Omatikaya just before Neytiri attempts to teach Jake how to ride a pa'li - another pa'li that had been eating from some flowers had its antennae reach for the ground, presumably to establish a connection to Eywa (I guess there must have been some sort of "hotspot" that animals can link to).
But also the nantang with its puppies - its antennae also briefly reach for the ground, but then they attempt to perform a link to the puppies as well.

That would strongly indicate that the animals actually can communicate with Eywa (any animals seen in the movie have these antennae, one way or another), for otherwise some things that are happening later in the movie won't make sense.

However, the question whether any animals would be able to communicate with its progenitors would still have to be answered. The problem is in how far they retain a memory of their parents - or their parents' parents and so on.
Yet that would be an interesting notion.

Furthermore I'm wondering what would happen if an animal (or even a Na'vi) is linked to Eywa and any loreyu in the vicinity are disturbed. Do they notice or not (in other words: Could that possibly serve as some sort of alerting device to provide an early warning)?


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-- Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

"There are two things that are infinite: Human stupidity and the universe. However, I'm not yet sure about the universe."
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"He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and loses both."
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Offline Kamean

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 09:47:19 am »
All is possible, but, in my opinion, Atokirina' are sensory organ for Eywa.
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Offline Ningey

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 10:24:40 am »
Oe ke tsun mivllte...

The atokirina' rather serve as messengers whenever Eywa deems it necessary to provide some sort of sign for the Na'vi (and maybe some animal or another). Remember Neytiri saying "aungia lolu" when Tsu'tey first showed up - mere moments before Jake and she have had an encounter with lots of these seeds.
In fact, the atokrina' don't have any kind of sensory organs as far as I can tell - except some organ that allows Eywa to direct the seeds.

Instead, it's the animals on Pandora that serve as her eyes and ears (and the occasional plant that could act as some sort of sensor).


"Sawtute ke tsun nivume - fo ke kerame!"
-- Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

"There are two things that are infinite: Human stupidity and the universe. However, I'm not yet sure about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

"He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and loses both."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Offline Kamean

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 01:24:13 pm »
Srane, ngaru tìyawr.
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Offline Key'ìl Nekxetse

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 02:07:40 pm »
What about the mosses and other plants that light up on contact, is there any reason they couldn't provide the same input?
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Offline Kamean

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 02:54:25 pm »
What about the mosses and other plants that light up on contact, is there any reason they couldn't provide the same input?
Then, maybe, all plants?
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Offline Ningey

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 04:22:12 pm »
What about the mosses and other plants that light up on contact, is there any reason they couldn't provide the same input?

Srane.
First of all, they don't have eyes or ears. They might detect a change in lighting conditions so they can fire up their biolumineschence when it's sufficiently dark, but they won't necessarily be able to discern the type of being that may be approaching. For that feat you need sufficiently sophisticated means of seeing - and that's what animals have, and with their means of tsaheylu they can easily provide the data.
As for hearing, the means necessary for that feat aren't that complicated, so a barbed plant could probably provide such input, although it may be rather crude.

Nevertheless, the plants could very well act as motion and touch detectors, with the loreyu probably being the most viable option in this case. Since they retract to the ground upon being disturbed, they aren't that easily destroyed as other plants.


"Sawtute ke tsun nivume - fo ke kerame!"
-- Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

"There are two things that are infinite: Human stupidity and the universe. However, I'm not yet sure about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

"He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and loses both."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 08:39:22 pm »
I think you are limiting Eywa by your case, ma Ningey.

If you look in the ASG, you will see that there are many plants on Pandora that are part animal, like the loreyu. It's just the loreyu are big and showy.

There is a lot more going on here than meets the eye.

Eywa's sensors are everywhere, as has been previously mentioned. But I suspect that the sensore are a lot more sophisticated then we give them credit. Nearly any plant may have sensors for vision, sound, and perhaps non-visible parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. We simply don't know.

Besides the hardwired connection through tsaheylu, I think there are 'wireless' connections as well. these would not be able to carry as much information as tsaheylu, but could carry enough to accomplish a number of tasks. One important task is 'recovering' the spirit of those Na'vi who die without being in  tsaheylu with something. This would also be a connection with moving animals, and might also be part of Eywa's long-distance communication mechanism.

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Offline Ningey

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 09:54:33 am »
I think you are limiting Eywa by your case, ma Ningey.

If you look in the ASG, you will see that there are many plants on Pandora that are part animal, like the loreyu. It's just the loreyu are big and showy.
Unfortunately I don't have that one available, so I have to rely on other sources for this.
On Earth, we actually have plants that share some traits with animals (e. g. the Venus flytrap - it digests insects that happen to land on it - so there are reactions to stimuli), although they aren't that pronounced.
But no matter what, in order to discern shapes and the likes, you would need some sophisticated means of seeing (an eye of any sort). Simple sensors won't help, because they are merely able to detect a change in lighting conditions (you need a lens to focus the light rays).

There is a lot more going on here than meets the eye.

Eywa's sensors are everywhere, as has been previously mentioned. But I suspect that the sensore are a lot more sophisticated then we give them credit. Nearly any plant may have sensors for vision, sound, and perhaps non-visible parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. We simply don't know.
Sure. Touch and smell can be achieved with rather simple means, so the chances are quite good that any plant is going to provide these types of information. Some Pandoran plants are even capable of reacting to any such stimuli (be it on their own volition, be it that Eywa somehow is behind this - I just cannot tell right now).
Occasionally we are going to find some of that on Earth as well (e. g. the mimosa which is sensitive to touch).

Besides the hardwired connection through tsaheylu, I think there are 'wireless' connections as well. these would not be able to carry as much information as tsaheylu, but could carry enough to accomplish a number of tasks. One important task is 'recovering' the spirit of those Na'vi who die without being in  tsaheylu with something. This would also be a connection with moving animals, and might also be part of Eywa's long-distance communication mechanism.
Careful here!
Wireless communications can become rather tricky. If it's pheromones and the likes, things are implemented fairly easily, but more sophisticated means of communication require more sophisitcated "hardware" - for example you won't be able to listen to any radio station by simply putting up an antenna and attach a speaker to it - you must be able to tune in on a signal, demodulate the HF, then amplify the LF before you can actually do anything with it.
Furthermore, you also need some means to get the signal transmitted in the first place.

Several issues would have to be resolved here.
The first question that arises is where Eywa or any animals, etc. take the power necessary for doing such a transmission (in case it is of electromagnetic origin, you need some watts to get going, plus you need a means of modulating the carrier necessary with whatever information you want to have transmitted). You also have to consider any propagation conditions here, and QSB and QRN can easily bust communications - plus that the plasma storms that occur when Pandora is on the rear side of Polyphemus have the atmosphere so strongly ionized that this means fails altogether, and I guess that Eywa won't just rely on certain tropospheric conditions and Sporadic-E, plus that long skips could be unavailable at certain times. Add rain and other conditions, and you might get entirely unexpected results.
The other question is how the unobtainium would come into play and in how far a superconductor would make up a good antenna. If it does (and Eywa has tapped into such caches of unobtainium), there would be a sufficiently large number of "hotspots" animals could link to, but nonetheless propagation conditions have an impact.

Another means would be some means of communications by infra- or ultrasonic transmission. However, the drawback here is that such sound is easily displaced by wind, and rain, fog and the likes can also hamper communications - plus that high frequencies are more easily dissipated than low ones, however, low frequencies usually mean low bandwidth. Furthermore, when more than one entity attempts to transmit at the same time, you are going to get chaos.

The problem here is that just because something can be imagined, that doesn't necessarily mean that such options are feasible as well.
But no matter what, that's an interesting subject and well worth further examination.


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-- Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

"There are two things that are infinite: Human stupidity and the universe. However, I'm not yet sure about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

"He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and loses both."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Offline archaic

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 02:35:19 pm »
For most of this you seam to be assuming that this 'wireless' is radio, or fully analogous to it. Eywa may have some some other method completely, IR and ultrasonic transmission are very sensitive to unfavorable conditions, but;
a) this would likely only be over a short distance for much of the time.
b) biology is very adept at covering data skips, when was the last time you were aware of your blind spot?
c) when confronted with more than one person talking at the same time, you are quite capable of picking out one voice from general background chatter, up to a point obviously.

Eywa might have something unique, or possibly multiple overlapping data pathways.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 09:36:12 pm »
Ningey, By your post, I am guessing you are a ham radio operator. I am, too. (NS9E)

Archaic is on the right track. I seriously doubt that Eywa is using any communication system that we are currently aware of (you also have to remember that this is a fictional story, and reality in Pandora has been 'modified' a bit). We will assume here that the communication system is non-Hertzian (although it doesn't have to be. I won't limit God in reality, and we can't limit Eywa on Pandora (and I am assuming that Eywa is not entierly physical) ).

By the time of this story, we, too are aware of this kind of communication, and I believe we would be using it as the link between the psi-link machines and the avatars. The proof here is that if the avatars were tied back to the psi-link machines via radio as we know it, it would have been extremely easy for Quaritch and crew to have simply jammed the links and disabled the avatars. So, there is some other communication system at work (at least on Pandora) that can link to living things, either by natural or artificial means. And whatever it is, it is difficult or impossible to jam (or Quaritch didn't have the right equipment to do it, because it was never envisioned that it would be needed).

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 09:46:41 pm »
The 'Sacred Tree' behaves much like coral and jellyfish biologically.



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Offline Kamean

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 09:35:57 am »
Interesting spot. :)
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Offline Ningey

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Re: The Loreyu - sensory organ for Eywa?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 01:05:22 pm »
Ningey, By your post, I am guessing you are a ham radio operator. I am, too. (NS9E)

Archaic is on the right track. I seriously doubt that Eywa is using any communication system that we are currently aware of (you also have to remember that this is a fictional story, and reality in Pandora has been 'modified' a bit). We will assume here that the communication system is non-Hertzian (although it doesn't have to be. I won't limit God in reality, and we can't limit Eywa on Pandora (and I am assuming that Eywa is not entierly physical) ).

By the time of this story, we, too are aware of this kind of communication, and I believe we would be using it as the link between the psi-link machines and the avatars. The proof here is that if the avatars were tied back to the psi-link machines via radio as we know it, it would have been extremely easy for Quaritch and crew to have simply jammed the links and disabled the avatars. So, there is some other communication system at work (at least on Pandora) that can link to living things, either by natural or artificial means. And whatever it is, it is difficult or impossible to jam (or Quaritch didn't have the right equipment to do it, because it was never envisioned that it would be needed).

Yup, you got it (DL3OLA). That's why I came up with that analogy in the first place. ^^

O.k., psionics would be a feasible mechanism (somehow that option had slipped my mind - oe lu skxawng... :-[), and obviously there are places at which Eywa's presence seems to be more "tangible" than at others - maybe something directly linked to the presence of unobtainium?
In that instance I would assume that the mineral somehow acts as a transmission system/amplifier combo.

Furthermore, since there are many of these spots on Pandora (the ayRam aLusìng, the ayVitrayä Ramunong, and even the different places at which Trees of Voices are growing, etc.), that would mean that the range of communications could be rather short without incurring too many problems - which in turn would be able to compensate for any losses in strength due to physical factors (a signal's strength being inversely proportional to the square of the distance). Since a psionic transmission should spread out as if originating from an isotropic radiator, that could be a limiting factor unless, of course, the rock structures serve as something akin to a directional antenna.

The most intriguing part, however, is that all these spots could also be similar to the lobes of a brain - only that Eywa doesn't merely consist of two (as in a human brain) or three (as in the brain of a Na'vi) of these, but an entire cluster of them (like ganglia in a neuronal network, but much, much more complex).

However, that got me wondering about one thing: Since the technology required to link to the avatars, could Eywa be able to receive these signals and possibly also understand them?
If yes, that would provide for some very good explanations for some of the things that had been going on but seemed to be rather strange upon first glance, but taking that into account, Eywa's actions and reactions suddenly become rather straightforward (especially why virtually no avatars have been attacked - if the avatar drivers wanted to find out more about the world, why would Eywa interfere? Plus that would provide an explanation why the Na'vi came to trust Grace Augustine rather quickly).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 01:32:17 pm by Ningey »


"Sawtute ke tsun nivume - fo ke kerame!"
-- Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

"There are two things that are infinite: Human stupidity and the universe. However, I'm not yet sure about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

"He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and loses both."
-- Benjamin Franklin

 

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