Tsaheylu networking

Started by Kerame Pxel Nume, May 29, 2010, 11:26:26 AM

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Nusumea Tirea

Quote from: Puvomun on July 12, 2010, 11:39:37 AM
how would a Na'vi experience the death of an ikran or direhorse while having the bond enabled? Whilst having created tsaheylu?


The thought seriously made me nervous and shiver. Would they feel the pain of their bond-mate? Would they sense its death?

I would say yes. As they are bonded, the rider will feel the ikran or direhorse die. I think he would even follow his spirit a little bit (like the storys of near death experience) but only up to a point.  Because the rider is not dead he would be stopped somewhere because he is not dead (maybe a Tsa'hik could follow further, but then would die also).


Puvomun

Quote from: P.A.'li makto on July 12, 2010, 01:12:10 PM
QuoteI recall he was standing at the airstrip as an avatar as the humans packed up to leave Pandora, but I am not sure.
As a human, yes.
Ah... right. Irayo!
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Puvomun

Quote from: Muzer on July 12, 2010, 01:24:10 PM
I don't even see the point in the machines transferring consciousness to your Avatar - I mean, with enough virtualisation they would be able to get an identical effect, plus it would be much less dangerous and risky (in a sudden disconnection or a death). Plus it would obviously be a lot harder, and raises the question of what consciousness actually is (which the humans would have had to have answered).
I am not sure if they actually transfer their consciousness to the avatar. I think it is more that they expand their awareness to the other body, through the link (which is a kind of bond also, I now realise, a form of 'wireless' tsaheylu) and that they focus on the senses from that body. Like you can be drawn into a good movie entirely, like let's say Avatar ;) , and you forget everything around you.

In that way they are in the body and sense everything. Virtualisation would have serious shortcomings when rapid action is called for, I'd think.
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Puvomun

Quote from: Nusumea Tirea on July 12, 2010, 01:58:46 PM
I would say yes. As they are bonded, the rider will feel the ikran or direhorse die. I think he would even follow his spirit a little bit (like the storys of near death experience) but only up to a point.  Because the rider is not dead he would be stopped somewhere because he is not dead (maybe a Tsa'hik could follow further, but then would die also).

Srane. I am with you there. Especially the "only up to a point" part, which should be a self-preservation mechanism. I was with my mother when she died, and a piece of me died with her, or so it felt. It healed but there is always a hole. Most of the time it is without pain, surrounded or dampened by good memories. I can imagine that it feels likewise for the Na'vi, when losing such an intrical part of their life, their existence. A physical part of their being.
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Tuteyä amuiä 'itan

#24
i was just watching Avatar and i was at the part when Seze is first shot u can see the pain was transferred to Neytiri b/c she leaned over and yelled in pain as if she was being shot also. as well when she is fighting Quaritch and he stabs the palulukan u hear her and the palulukan yell in pain. :( very sad only...


Puvomun

Quote from: Tuteyä amuiä 'itan on July 24, 2010, 06:38:54 PM
i was just watching Avatar and i was at the part when Seze is first shot u can see the pain was transferred to Neytiri b/c she leaned over and yelled in pain as if she was being shot also. as well when she is fighting Quaritch and he stabs the palulukan u hear her and the palulukan yell in pain. :( very sad only...
Srane, that fits with how I assume tsaheylu works. When it's well it's well, but when things go sour, the pain is shared as well...
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Toruk Makto

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on July 12, 2010, 01:01:56 PM
I imagine that the feeling you get when a creature you are currently bonded to are killed would be similar to how Norm felt when his avatar was killed.

Are you sure his Avatar died?    ;)

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Tuteyä amuiä 'itan

Quote from: Markì on July 24, 2010, 11:52:09 PM
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on July 12, 2010, 01:01:56 PM
I imagine that the feeling you get when a creature you are currently bonded to are killed would be similar to how Norm felt when his avatar was killed.

Are you sure his Avatar died?    ;)

pretty sure b/c he pretty much falls out of his link grasping his chest and later u see him venturing out with a mask on and a gun and at the end u only see him as a human not in his avatar body


Puvomun

Quote from: Tuteyä amuiä 'itan on July 25, 2010, 12:05:17 AM
pretty sure b/c he pretty much falls out of his link grasping his chest and later u see him venturing out with a mask on and a gun and at the end u only see him as a human not in his avatar body

Mllte... if his Avatar body did not die, it must have been severely damaged.

Come to speak of Norm, one might even consider the link that a human has with his/her Avatar body is a form of tsaheylu also. If you see the pain human Norm shows after being his Avatar was shot. After all, it is a neural link too.
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Tuteyä amuiä 'itan

Quote from: Puvomun on July 25, 2010, 12:10:12 AM
Quote from: Tuteyä amuiä 'itan on July 25, 2010, 12:05:17 AM
pretty sure b/c he pretty much falls out of his link grasping his chest and later u see him venturing out with a mask on and a gun and at the end u only see him as a human not in his avatar body

Mllte... if his Avatar body did not die, it must have been severely damaged.

Come to speak of Norm, one might even consider the link that a human has with his/her Avatar body is a form of tsaheylu also. If you see the pain human Norm shows after being his Avatar was shot. After all, it is a neural link too.

Norm got the worst of it... at the start of the war he was riding a Pa'li and part way through it gets shot and he was thrown off so he felt that pain THEN his avatar was shot also so MORE pain


Puvomun

Quote from: Tuteyä amuiä 'itan on July 25, 2010, 12:16:57 AM
Norm got the worst of it... at the start of the war he was riding a Pa'li and part way through it gets shot and he was thrown off so he felt that pain THEN his avatar was shot also so MORE pain

Not so strange he tumbled from the link-module half in panic, after all that. He went through the wringer and that without much training or tsaheylu-experience, contrary to Jake. (My assumption here, of course.)
There has to be something immensely strong in a Na'vi body to withstand bond-experiences like that, without going crazy.
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Ekirä

My first post on this forum ever was about death and tsaheylu. :)

It makes me wonder.....humans really have no idea what death actually IS, and how it feels until it actually happens, and then you can't really tell other people once you've died..... Of course, there are those rare experiences of people that DO die and then come back, but mostly it's just a big unknown.

The Na'vi, on the other hand, can be connected through their queues and experience someone else die. On the day of the infamous battle, Neytiri had to go through both of the animals she rode dying in one day. That must have been difficult........

BUT--it makes me wonder what it would feel like to them if they were ever connected with another Na'vi and experienced the other dying....I would imagine tsaheylu-ing with another Na'vi would make you more connected than if you tsaheylu-ed with an animal, naturally because connecting to another of your own species just seems like.....agh. My brain is not putting the words together right now, hopefully you get my point. It doesn't seem like it would happen often, but if it did I'm guessing it would be way more devastating than if your animal died! People understand other people's thoughts and gestures more than they understand animals. I'm guessing it's the same with the Na'vi and their animals, although you would get more of an understanding of animals when you neurally bond.

Tuteyä amuiä 'itan

i understand what your trying 2 say... and i do think your right about humans not really being able 2 understand what animals feel other then how they r acting... lol sometimes while im with my dog i say 2 her "come on just talk a and tell me what u want or what your thinking" lol.... and yes i also feel that the Na'vi can feel/understand more about the animals since they r connected through tsaheylu.


Muzer

(Getting offtopic now) - I always find it amusing in Torchwood how Captain Jack says with so much certainty that death is just blackness (because he's died before, and now can't).



Anyway, I do agree - death via Tsaheylu (putting it like that makes it sound like the murder weapon :P) would probably be a horrible experience. Neytiri is lucky the first time, as she is thrown off Seze before he actually dies - less lucky the second time...



It's remarkable how little we know about animals - I mean, I assumed that behavioural-wise, we had them all figured out - but just looking up cat (for example) on wikipedia will tell you that many simple animal behaviours have many different interpretations on why they evolved, or whether they are byproducts of such and such a thing, etc. Few things we seem to know for certain.
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Ekirä

Can you imagine being connected to that palulukan that Quaritch stabs repeatedly? Neytiri cries out when it's stabbed--pretty clear that she feels SOMETHING.

I am fascinated by animal behaviors, what all the slight movements and facial expressions mean.....there are a lot of really great books on this. But it's true, we're always learning new things about them! But I think we know more about dogs than cats, cats always have an air of mystery around them :)

Hufwe ta'em

Na'vi use vpn Client as connection  over Cisco System


Puvomun

Quote from: Hufwe ta'em on August 03, 2010, 08:43:57 AM
Na'vi use vpn Client as connection  over Cisco System
OME!! I love that one!!
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Ngopyu ayvurä.

Tuteyä amuiä 'itan

Quote from: Hufwe ta'em on August 03, 2010, 08:43:57 AM
Na'vi use vpn Client as connection  over Cisco System
hahahahahaha!!!!