Author Topic: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad  (Read 2587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jake_Sully_1

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: 1
What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« on: November 16, 2010, 12:21:24 pm »
Hi all

Numerous fans of AVATAR say that the movie somehow makes them sad. Or even depressed. That goes for me too. I've been thinking why that is. I have two theories.

Reason #1.): Contrast to Earth
The obvious "it's always greener on the other side". Pandora is more beautiful, unspoiled, "sexier", younger, not overpopulated, all life is one big family, much more opportunities, etc. Obviously that's all better and more attractive than Earth and it's exactly what Cameron wanted to transport his message(s). Obviously this has the same effect as showing an inmate of a prison a nice sandy beach...
It's no real surprise that this effect makes people sad to have to return to their overpopulated, stinking cities without any job opportunities, etc.

Reason #2.) Truths and Lies
Avatar is full of symbolism, morals and truths about humans. And, like most Hollywood films, it's also full of lies. You know, the lies that sell a product, for instance: "The good guys win!", etc.
Only in this movie, all these things are so obvious, that the observer automatically detects which things are true and which are not.
It's true that human beings are horrible, mean and do the cruelest things to each other when in groups, for money or fame. We all feel that the felling of the home tree is "true". It's something that does happen, in many different contexts. And that's what's really depressing about AVATAR.
The strong prey on the weak, the weak are exploited, f***ed over, raped, castrated, driven away, murdered, disrespected, etc., just because those stronger have the means to do it.
On the other hand, we know the happy ending of AVATAR, the turnaround is a complete "lie".
There is no "Eywa" on Earth that comes to the rescue of the weak.
We simply know the bad stuff is true, the good stuff is your average Hollywood lie.
AVATAR is a mix between a "symbolic documentary" showing us what's bad and a typical fairy tail, where we know we're being lied at, where the good guys win.
The harsh conclusion is: Good exists in fairy tales. In reality, the bad is true and the norm.
That's depressing.

Offline Toruk Makto

  • LearnNavi Admin
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • us United States
  • Karma: 213
  • . Txepsiyu Markì .
    • Learn Na'vi
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 11:03:41 am »
You missed the next step, which is the minor premise of the film.

Where Earth is broken, fix it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:05:13 am by Markì »

Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Human No More

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1591
  • Karma: 15
  • Misplaced.
    • Tree of Souls
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 04:29:51 pm »
I think about and discuss this a lot... both are true for me at least.
Also, so much more.  Neytiri is perfect, and she inspired me to look for real, true love.

The Na'vi are, both physically and in terms of living, what I want to be
I want a world free of all he problems humans create... but as long as the majority of humans are the ayskxawng they always have been it won't happen :(
Other than that, it's just real freedom, and a sense of really being close to to other people :)
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 11:18:32 pm »
You missed the next step, which is the minor major premise of the film.

Where Earth is broken, fix it.

Although it seems like Cameron went through a lot, picking up inspiration along the way...

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Zhäki

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: 2
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 11:26:02 pm »
I like the way Cameron put it in the Brazil Dam section of the extended edition: we need to find the happy medium between our prosperous, technological lives and the health of the environment and become, as he put it, "Techno-indigenous". It's unfortunate that we have lost the ancient wisdom that let our forebears live perfectly in tune with the world, and the world is very different today anyway, even if we had not. But we can still find the middle way. When in doubt, make the choice that heals the world, i guess. I know i'm going to do all i can to find that balance, to support green, sustainable energy, and eliminate wastefulness from my life in every way i know how. That's the lesson i bring away from Avatar, and it meters the melancholy a lot. :)

Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 398
  • Karma: 4
  • Blue-Skinned Freedom Fighter
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 12:26:44 am »
Even beyond simply the environmental message, is the underlining message of humanity needing to find true balance with nature, beyond what the current "green" mindset is.   

Because in actuality, there is no "environment," where all the rest of the non-human plant and animal life is domed off in a seperate biosphere from us. There is no "human world" and "natural world," there is just "the world." Period. No matter how much we believe otherwise, humanity, and all it's baggage, is a part of the world, the same world that nature shares. The biggest downfall of the current environmentalist movement is this separatist attitude, and I'm sure if the Na'vi could see it they would declare the movement just as insane as every other Sky People activity because of this attitude. We might not be able to get the knowledge back that long gone indigenous peoples and the Na'vi have, but we can at least revive their mindset. We need to begin viewing the natural world as an equal again, and feel and view it the way these peoples do. Not until we can truly feel, See, the Earth and it's ills in the same deep, personal way native peoples do, will we be able to heal the world. THAT is the message of Avatar, not about buying a Prius and flourescent light bulbs, but about learning to See the world through the eyes of the people that walked in harmony with it. Then, and only then, will humanity be able to find a new way forward. Only when we are able to truly feel the effects of our actions, will we be able to change them. Only once we learn to See again will we be able to find balance with the Earth while still progressing, of true technological harmony. The way needs to be living with nature, not walling ourselves off from it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 12:32:59 am by Tsyal Maktoyu »


Revolutionist

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”. - Denis Diderot

Offline Toruk Makto

  • LearnNavi Admin
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • us United States
  • Karma: 213
  • . Txepsiyu Markì .
    • Learn Na'vi
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2010, 08:06:15 am »
Knowing about something and doing something are very different concepts. There are many social mechanisms in place that perpetuate our insularity from our environment. One problem is overpopulation. We have too many people on the planet, yet many of our major religions forbids contraception methods. IMO, that is a fundamental hurdle we will need to get over in order to start fixing our destructive activities.


Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Jake_Sully_1

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: 1
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 02:42:35 am »
Hi all,

Oh, what great replies!  :) :) :)

Quote from: Markì
You missed the next step, which is the minor premise of the film.

Where Earth is broken, fix it.

I'm not sure I missed it. Actually I'm active in trying to fix Earth myself, for instance with my "Organization for Animal Dignity". Or with supporting the boycott against Israel (BDS), or with talking about overpopulation. But with all these subjects (BDS the least actually) I keep running into walls of ignorance. People simply don't care. I have zero active members in my Organization for Animal Dignity and all the green and environmental parties fail to even TALK about overpopulation, despite that being the real underlying problem behind it all, global warming, famines, wars, etc.

Quote from: Markì
One problem is overpopulation.
YES!!!
You got it! But let me make an example why AVATAR makes me sad:
You know the guy who made AVATAR, this great movie about all these problems humanity has, right?
You know how many children James Cameron has? He's got 6.
So do you think even he would be open to discuss the real problems?
Sometimes I think he made AVATAR because of a bad conscience. That would explain the brilliance of the film.


Quote from: Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea
Although it seems like Cameron went through a lot, picking up inspiration along the way...
Yes, I agree. Cameron already had quite some good background, but going to South America and all these environmental orgs contacting him after AVATAR, I think he was truly surprised by that and learning / adjusting to new things he didn't expect. It's nice to see him adjusting to these things as he obviously seems like someone who cares. I have a lot of respect for him (and Sigourney and "Norm" who went to South America as well).


Quote from: Zhäki
I like the way Cameron put it in the Brazil Dam section of the extended edition: we need to find the happy medium between our prosperous, technological lives and the health of the environment and become, as he put it, "Techno-indigenous". It's unfortunate that we have lost the ancient wisdom that let our forebears live perfectly in tune with the world, and the world is very different today anyway, even if we had not. But we can still find the middle way. When in doubt, make the choice that heals the world, i guess. I know i'm going to do all i can to find that balance, to support green, sustainable energy, and eliminate wastefulness from my life in every way i know how. That's the lesson i bring away from Avatar, and it meters the melancholy a lot.
Yes. That and overpopulation. Never forget overpopulation.
It's surprising AVATAR originally started off in the script with the description of an overpopulated world, with JC having 6 children himself.
Even if we max out the "green" thought, if we keep reproducing the way we have, nothing will save all the things which will be destroyed by that. Such as Earth.


Quote from: Tsyal Maktoyu
Even beyond simply the environmental message, is the underlining message of humanity needing to find true balance with nature, beyond what the current "green" mindset is.  

Because in actuality, there is no "environment," where all the rest of the non-human plant and animal life is domed off in a seperate biosphere from us. There is no "human world" and "natural world," there is just "the world." Period. No matter how much we believe otherwise, humanity, and all it's baggage, is a part of the world, the same world that nature shares. The biggest downfall of the current environmentalist movement is this separatist attitude, and I'm sure if the Na'vi could see it they would declare the movement just as insane as every other Sky People activity because of this attitude. We might not be able to get the knowledge back that long gone indigenous peoples and the Na'vi have, but we can at least revive their mindset. We need to begin viewing the natural world as an equal again, and feel and view it the way these peoples do. Not until we can truly feel, See, the Earth and it's ills in the same deep, personal way native peoples do, will we be able to heal the world. THAT is the message of Avatar, not about buying a Prius and flourescent light bulbs, but about learning to See the world through the eyes of the people that walked in harmony with it. Then, and only then, will humanity be able to find a new way forward. Only when we are able to truly feel the effects of our actions, will we be able to change them. Only once we learn to See again will we be able to find balance with the Earth while still progressing, of true technological harmony. The way needs to be living with nature, not walling ourselves off from it.
I couldn't agree more! Yes, the separatist attitude, that and failing to even mention overpopulation. The US have much more space than Europe, especially Switzerland, so Americans won't notice as much, but even in overpopulated Switzerland, overpopulation is NOT a subject ANYWHERE in the media or political parties. It's just taboo, it's not "politically correct". That's a problem right there. A big one.


Quote from: Tsyal Maktoyu
We need to begin viewing the natural world as an equal again
Oh! I *love* this!  :) Great!
That's exactly what I am trying to promote with my Organization for Animal Dignity: To see the natural world, or in this case, the natural other, non-human, beings of our natural world, such as horses for instance, as equal. THAT'S exactly what I am trying to promote. It's the explanation why I oppose animal castration so strongly. You simply can *NEVER* see something as equal, that you castrate.
We humans take it as an entitlement that we may castrate all other beings of this world. After all, everything except ourselves are just "blue monkeys", right?
How much success have I had with my anti-animal-castration organization?
Zero. Absolutely none it seems. And this despite the fact that there are literally *millions* of people who claim to "love" horses or other animals. It seems our "love" for The Other is not linked to respect at all.
Those kind of facts depress. And AVATAR just puts a finger deeply into the wound...
While I'm tickled pink, really, that JC sees what he sees, that the film shows that others have seen the wound, and that many people like the movie, it's also frustrating that that might simply be all and that it won't change anything at all.
The thought / fact that nothing will change, I think that's what's really frustrating.


Quote from: Tsyal Maktoyu
Only when we are able to truly feel the effects of our actions, will we be able to change them. Only once we learn to See again will we be able to find balance with the Earth while still progressing, of true technological harmony. The way needs to be living with nature, not walling ourselves off from it.
Again, I can't agree more!
Awesome post!  :) :) :)


Quote from: Markì
Knowing about something and doing something are very different concepts. There are many social mechanisms in place that perpetuate our insularity from our environment. One problem is overpopulation. We have too many people on the planet, yet many of our major religions forbids contraception methods. IMO, that is a fundamental hurdle we will need to get over in order to start fixing our destructive activities
Yes, that's what I was getting at:
It's like AVATAR might be what Catholics do: You know: Instead of stopping sinning, simply go to the church, confess and pay your dews, then you're freed to sin again.
People go see AVATAR, cry when the home tree is felled, then go home and buy Israeli products, castrate a horse to use as a riding object, make their 7'th child, etc.
It's exactly this ignorance of people that's so frustrating to me. It's so clear that overpopulation causes so many tremendous problems, and here we are, just as Marki says, our "moral" leaders, our "shamans" our religions forbid contraception. - If they want to forbid contraception, they should also forbid all inventions we have made in the last 1000 years. Perhaps then we would have a sufficiently high death toll from famines and illnesses to compensate our birth rate. But with the bonus we get from technology and industrialization, our reproduction rate really is out-of-bounds.
Of course, all this overpopulation and contraception stuff is linked to the taboo subject of sexuality.
It's one of the reason why my biggest complaint about AVATAR is that JC removed the queue-cutting scene on Tsu'tey (2007 script). If anything, that was a symbolic castration, a symbol of our pathetic suppression of our own problem, of how we project our problems onto others, of how we deal with the sexuality of others, while it is our own f***ed up sexuality, our inability to control our own reproduction rate, which is the cause of all our problems. It symbolizes how we reproduce like rabbits, then rob and steal from others, weaker ones, and finally castrate THEM (needlessly!) to compensate.

Hmpf...

Mark
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 02:51:18 am by Jake_Sully_1 »

Offline Toruk Makto

  • LearnNavi Admin
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • us United States
  • Karma: 213
  • . Txepsiyu Markì .
    • Learn Na'vi
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 09:31:53 am »
I thought James Cameron has 4 children... ?

Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Jake_Sully_1

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: 1
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2010, 09:01:34 am »
I thought James Cameron has 4 children... ?

Ugh.. I read somewhere he has 6!
Maybe 2 were added by his second wife or something...?
4 sounds a little better than 6.  :-\


EDIT: Ugh... This thread seems dead now...  :o
Did *I* kill it?  :o
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 02:35:14 pm by Jake_Sully_1 »

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 11:39:29 pm »
EDIT: Ugh... This thread seems dead now...  :o
Did *I* kill it?  :o

*Uselessly revives thread ::)*

Somewhere from 4-6 children I think... :P

It was mention in the "Message From Pandora" vid....

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Jake_Sully_1

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: 1
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 03:16:13 am »
Anyway, THIS is what makes me sad:

http://forum.learnnavi.org/general-avatar-discussion/its-not-the-end-of-the-world-its-the-end-of-us/

You know how sometimes images speak more than a 1000 words?
Watch the video.

Mark

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 01:13:54 am »
Anyway, THIS is what makes me sad:

http://forum.learnnavi.org/general-avatar-discussion/its-not-the-end-of-the-world-its-the-end-of-us/

You know how sometimes images speak more than a 1000 words?
Watch the video.

Mark

Sran, that vid reminds me a bit of The 11th Hour...
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Sezetirea216

  • Uniltìranyu
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Karma: 2
  • See a building, want to jump off it like Seze
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 09:21:51 pm »
Avatar gives me the sense of freedom without the money games, destruction of habitat, polution, and the general feeling of helplessness i get when our leaders screw something up or eraticate another species. Yet here i am, doing pushups in offseason and writing essays on "conservation" as if thats gonna help us :( on pandora and among the na'vi life is very straightfoward and follows the rules. Eveyone has their own job and tribe population is the right size. And everyone just freaking LISTENS to whats around them and noone is interested in cutting down a forest for a cheap buck. Plus the animals kick ASS
Oe mäkxu ma nikre ne'ìm ulte kulat

Offline Toruk Makto

  • LearnNavi Admin
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6084
  • us United States
  • Karma: 213
  • . Txepsiyu Markì .
    • Learn Na'vi
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 09:56:50 pm »
Wow! A zinger of a thread revival here...  But an interesing post.

Lì’fyari leNa’vi ’Rrtamì, vay set ’almong a fra’u zera’u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://eanaeltu.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Offline Sezetirea216

  • Uniltìranyu
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Karma: 2
  • See a building, want to jump off it like Seze
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2011, 04:56:15 pm »
I just randomly saw this page and thought I would add my two cents
Oe mäkxu ma nikre ne'ìm ulte kulat

Offline archaic

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
  • Karma: 73
  • Trying again with the language.
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 03:00:31 am »
What makes me sad .....
There are many dystopian scifi's out there. The human race seems to be competing with itself, to see which it can make come true first.

The Dragon Affair my current fanfic - now complete.

The Dragons Clutch, my last fanfic, non Avatar related.

Machine, my last Avatar related fanfic.

Offline Sezetirea216

  • Uniltìranyu
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Karma: 2
  • See a building, want to jump off it like Seze
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2011, 05:32:08 pm »
Wait, what? I'm confused  ???
Oe mäkxu ma nikre ne'ìm ulte kulat

Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 06:04:54 pm »
What makes me sad .....
There are many dystopian scifi's out there. The human race seems to be competing with itself, to see which it can make come true first.



How to make nightmares come true...

Offline Kamean

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 10804
  • Karma: 64
  • Oe lu tute a tsun stivawm Eywayä mokrit
Re: What makes AVATAR (and its fans) sad
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 09:11:29 am »
What makes me sad .....
There are many dystopian scifi's out there. The human race seems to be competing with itself, to see which it can make come true first.



How to make nightmares come true...
Really...
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi