Afghanistan/Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

Started by archaic, August 15, 2021, 02:02:34 PM

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archaic

Oh boy!  :o  :o
My heart goes out to all those affected, directly and indirectly. To both those on the ground in the country, and to their friends and families around the world. I know I am not alone in this.


I call that a US and Nato fail, of indescribably colossal proportions.
While I know many predicted that something like this was inevitable, as soon as the western allies pulled out. I suspect the speed at which it has happened, has shocked the entire planet.
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Toliman

Quote from: archaic on August 15, 2021, 02:02:34 PM
Oh boy!  :o  :o
My heart goes out to all those affected, directly and indirectly. To both those on the ground in the country, and to their friends and families around the world. I know I am not alone in this.
Me too.

Quote from: archaic on August 15, 2021, 02:02:34 PM
I call that a US and Nato fail, of indescribably colossal proportions.
While I know many predicted that something like this was inevitable, as soon as the western allies pulled out. I suspect the speed at which it has happened, has shocked the entire planet.
Exactly this
I expected that it wil happen but I never was able to imagine that it could be such quickly...

Tìtstewan

I'd call this the biggest military fail of the 21st century. It's looks so unreal, but the Taliban just took over a whole state within a few weeks and will pretty much destroy all the effort the NATO and its allies has spent in 20 years. :o

I feel sorry for the civilian population as they will face a really hard time. :(

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Toliman

#3
Quote from: Tìtstewan on August 15, 2021, 03:24:15 PM
I'd call this the biggest military fail of the 21st century. It's looks so unreal, but the Taliban just took over a whole state within a few weeks and will pretty much destroy all the effort the NATO and its allies has spent in 20 years. :o
I would say that it's the biggest military fail of the not only 21st century... I don't remember another case where would be whole many years effort (20 years, that is really incredible) lost in such short time...


Quote from: Tìtstewan on August 15, 2021, 03:24:15 PM
I feel sorry for the civilian population as they will face a really hard time. :(
This

archaic

I would say it was a political fail, this has only happened because Trump agreed to pull all the US forces out.
It's happening now, rather than later, because Biden decided to bring forward the pull out.

:facepalm:  :facepalm:
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Toliman

Yeah, really it was not right time to pull out completelly all forces :(

Vawmataw

Quote from: Toliman on August 16, 2021, 01:29:44 PM
Yeah, really it was not right time to pull out completelly all forces :(
I'm wondering when it would have been the right time.

The recent and current history of Afghanistan is sad.
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Toliman

Quote from: Vawmataw on August 16, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
Quote from: Toliman on August 16, 2021, 01:29:44 PM
Yeah, really it was not right time to pull out completelly all forces :(
I'm wondering when it would have been the right time.
That is question...

archaic

When we had achieved permanent peace and stability, given the people of Afghanistan a future free from brutality, oppression and terror.
When we could be sure that every citizen of a free, open and inclusive Afghanistan could achieve, based on their abilities and hard work.
When we could say that corruption was a fringe issue, if not completely eradicated. (I'm being realistic here)
When we knew terrorist training camps could never again be free to operate inside it's borders, training jihadists to attack targets across the globe, in countries including the US.
When we were certain that atrocities, such as 911, could never be planed and orchestrated from within it's borders.


We need to understand that the whole world has seen what has happened, the US and her allies are being judged on their capabilities, their resolve, and their capability to defend their way of life from those who would take it from us. Russia, China, North Korea, Belarus, Iran, Syria, Sudan, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, organized crime, the list goes on and on.

The US is significantly less safe from attack now. It was Donald Trump who put the sign on the America's back saying it's safe to attack the US, and Biden has managed to make a catastrophically bad situation even worse.

The US looks impotent, so do her allies.

This has managed to make a severe global refugee problem, exponentially worse.
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Toliman

Quote from: archaic on August 18, 2021, 02:18:38 PM
The US is significantly less safe from attack now. It was Donald Trump who put the sign on the America's back saying it's safe to attack the US, and Biden has managed to make a catastrophically bad situation even worse.

The US looks impotent, so do her allies.

This has managed to make a severe global refugee problem, exponentially worse.
That is completelly true :(
I am worried about next events.

archaic

You and me both.
Actually, I think pretty much the whole world is!
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archaic

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Toliman

I expected that it will happen soon, it's sad

archaic

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jakesullyjr

Quote from: archaic on August 15, 2021, 02:02:34 PM
I call that a US and Nato fail, of indescribably colossal proportions.
I think it was a technical success we disagree on the goals motivation of nato.

Quote
While I know many predicted that something like this was inevitable, as soon as the western allies pulled out.
Without arming legitimate forces this was inevitable but it's also worth noting that the system previously wasn't democratic and didn't inspire belief by others,
it was just another u.s. backed puppet; as such the ground swell of support necessary to maintain the system didn't exist.
Pretty much the burning your allies syndrome, pretty soon their is not much actual support it's easy to say islamic emirate bad.
Trying to impose a nationality based solution on tribal peoples has had and still has devastating outcomes.
Quote
I suspect the speed at which it has happened, has shocked the entire planet.
shouldn't really if anything the transition was slower than expected.
I mean shocking part is that the extreme turn for worse.

jakesullyjr

Quote from: archaic on August 18, 2021, 02:18:38 PM
When we had achieved permanent peace and stability, given the people of Afghanistan a future free from brutality, oppression and terror.
When we could be sure that every citizen of a free, open and inclusive Afghanistan could achieve, based on their abilities and hard work.
When we could say that corruption was a fringe issue, if not completely eradicated. (I'm being realistic here)
When we knew terrorist training camps could never again be free to operate inside it's borders, training jihadists to attack targets across the globe, in countries including the US.
When we were certain that atrocities, such as 911, could never be planed and orchestrated from within it's borders.
non of these goals are or were attainable you're only talking about permanent occupation, the taliban were originally supported by the united states.
So the risk of any government we'd support in the west that is based on authoriterian imperialist mechanism of control and methods to oppress its people can use the very tools we've supplied them with to oppress their own tribal peoples to oppress us.
to borrow your language of us vs them frankly I don't identify with the u.s. or the e.u. go f*** these from my perspective invaders just as much as any isalmic Emirate or Caliphate they all suck.
Quote
We need to understand that the whole world has seen what has happened, the US and her allies are being judged on their capabilities, their resolve, and their capability to defend their way of life from those who would take it from us. Russia, China, North Korea, Belarus, Iran, Syria, Sudan, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, organized crime, the list goes on and on.
I feel discriminated against you didn't mention my user name... this will not stand I will get the u.s. to fund my very own terror network to seek vengence on this act of unkindness and disespect
Quote
The US is significantly less safe from attack now. It was Donald Trump who put the sign on the America's back saying it's safe to attack the US, and Biden has managed to make a catastrophically bad situation even worse.
Yup
Quote
The US looks impotent, so do her allies.
Yup
QuoteThis has managed to make a severe global refugee problem, exponentially worse.
Somehow yes. but there is the following strategy that is used;
you pretend that refuges just don't exist it's used globally by pretty much every country when ever it is too inconvenient, just repeat the mantra the refuges don't exist.
this make you believe that there isn't a problem or isn't as much of a problem and it always works according to past experience.

archaic

Quote from: jakesullyjr on November 03, 2022, 06:21:48 AM
non of these goals are or were attainable you're only talking about permanent occupation,
I disagree. Many Afghans would disagree. Being there to remove opression, while at the same time, providing culturally sensitive nurturing to a nation and it's peoples, is not the same as imperialism.
And yes, I fully understand that this is not widely understood in the US.


Quote from: jakesullyjr on November 03, 2022, 06:21:48 AM
the taliban were originally supported by the united states.
We called them the Mujahideen back then. During the Soviet–Afghan War, we supported them, because the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Or so we believed at the time.
Basically, Communistphobia was a thing back then, Islamophobia wasn't, in the pre-9/11 era.


Quote from: jakesullyjr on November 03, 2022, 06:21:48 AM
So the risk of any government we'd support in the west that is based on authoriterian imperialist mechanism of control and methods to oppress its people can use the very tools we've supplied them with to oppress their own tribal peoples to oppress us.
to borrow your language of us vs them frankly I don't identify with the u.s. or the e.u. go f*** these from my perspective invaders just as much as any isalmic Emirate or Caliphate they all suck.
The difference is, we allowed most religious practices, but not all. Some, including, but not limited to, the stoning to death of rape victims, were not allowed.
We encouraged normal life to continue pretty much as normal (see above).
We invested in infrastructure which benefited the people of Afghanistan.
We mostly did a good job of providing safety for the population. School girls no longer risked being machine gunned for the sin of attending school, for example.
Yes, we did impose some Western values, like democracy and gender equality.
We didn't ban the wearing of items, such as the niqāb, or hijab, but we didn't enforce them either. (Iran is presently in the process of a peoples' uprising, partially fueled by precisely this issue. It may, or may not, be too early to call it a revolution, just now.)

What we did not do, which distinguished it from colonialism, we did not impose taxes, duties, levies, or other payments, to be payed to external nations, states or bodies, either in momentary form, in goods, or services, in exchange for providing them with peace, stability and freedom from extremist Islamist oppression.
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