Brexit

Started by Blue Elf, June 28, 2016, 12:09:24 PM

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Blue Elf

Normally I do not open or participate in discussions about politics, but brexit is quite important theme.
IMHO EU needed some strong warning, that it doesn't work well and brexit could be such warning, however, all things look strange and even contain some funny moments. I'm speaking mainly about petition for new vote, as apparently many people didn't know what they do. People believed that nothing happens, so they voted for leave just to opponents do not win by too much voices. Or there was man voting for leave, because he thought his voice is not important.
It looks like nobody wanted to leave, but nobody wanted to vote to stay. Now all are surprised what did and scared.
Even more strange is that people from country receiving big money from EU voted for leave and now they asking, if they still be receiving such money. To me it appears as some politicians raised big expectations by wrong promises (like saving 350 millions per day, which can be given to hospitals, what was admitted to be false and unreal), just to satisfy their ambitions.
Doesn't seem that EU take it as lesson for changes, I'm afraid that now EU founders will push more to stronger integration, what IMO make things worse. I'd like to see EU more free, as not all rules works for everyone. On the example of Greece we see, that accepting Euro can lead to problems and more examples could be found, like protecting own interest against other EU members.

I really don't know what direction gets future development, but some quite deep change is really necessary and old bureaucrats should leave important posts. EU has good aspects, but bad ones too and I'm not sure which one prevails. Brexit could lead to leaving other members, I even read that Texas would like to leave USA. Seems like history reverses - there were city states in old Greece, which integrated into bigger states and during time current states were established. Now everything comes to bits and IMHO age of city states returns back.

What do you think about the whole situation? Whatever happens seems bad....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tìtstewan

I would say that the EU does need some improvement, of course. It is only difficult to say where exactly it needed improvements and how to perform. Sure, the chaotic mess with Greek was kind of stupid as well as the bad politics about the refugee crisis. But the EU does have some advantages.
Regarding the Brexit, UK was a special case. They wanted exta stuff and exemptions. Conservative parties wanted to leave the EU just to put the UK back in the "good old time", that will not work well. However, now there are a lot of people surprised and a lot of them do not or have difficulties to realize the consequences the result of the referendum has. I saw it live how the stock exchange dropped last friday - it was somehow scary.

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Hahaw[hhvhhvcz]

Oh dear... well this theme is very debated on Internet and the amount of false information and hysteria from lost side is incredible. In addition, it seems that people do not understand democracy.

So before I'll take it point by point, I'll explain few term I will use here.

*disclaimer: This will be harsh because politics is harsh but I'll try to show you all facts I have.*

1. SJWs, LGBT+ acitvists, Feminazists, young communists, radical greens, young socials democrats - these all groups supported #remain campaign and all these groups are salty about their loss, a lot, even at the moment, after 5 days since result have been shown.

2. Establisment, most common media, politicians in favor of groups above, european politics, so-called elites who have the *best* opinion - all of these are salty as well or even more.

Then we can start -
1. Hysteria about Brexit - Oh, this one is good. I think, you have noticed it but Cameron was great as for this. You definitely remember how pro-remain ppl said that if Brexit won, it would start WW3, nuclear apocalypse, Great Britain would move to mars. Accurate picture in spoiler. btw Thanks to this hysteria, economics started shaking. Another example, they have compared Boris Johnson to Donald Trump. Why? To scare British citizens that if they vote Brexit, it is like voting Trump? Or that

Biggest hypocrite is Obama. You asked "why?". Well.. because he simply said that if UK leaves EU, he'll not make good trade deals with them. Hmm... there is someone who tries to manipulate ppl with fear. Thanks Obama. On the other hand, Trump has said that it does not matter whether UK leave EU or not, he will always make good trade deals with UK.

2. Ecomic collapese - I think, nodody is going to believe this. Seriously, even though UK dropped from 5th biggest economic to 7th and GBP has dropped. It will not be so bad. British citizens will not move to medieval era. It is true that some companies are maybe going to move their Europe centre and that there can be bigger un-employment rate but it always happens after change, economical or politician. Stockmarket will recover. btw Brexit strips world's 400 richest people of $127bn but British rich have lost only about $2bn.

3. British voters - "We should ban these old white racist citizens of our country from voting because they're going to ruin our lives." - said racial leftist SJW on Twitter and you can find there many more posts like that. A few our after Brexit, the Twitter was full of left-wing people who wanted to see UK in EU being salty that *old people has ruined their life*. Best irony is that those young who are now angry didn't go and vote. Only about 30% of young(18-24) actually went and voted. On the other side of spectrum(65+) 75% of people above 65 went and voted. I think, I've just started understanding why young are not let to be on important possitions. Because they are radical, a lot. You cannot simply ban half of population from voting. It is un-democratic as hell. Those young who fight for human rights, are suddenly more facist than neo-nazis. Same with Antifa which behave more neo-nazistic than real neo-nazis. It is great paradox.
One good argument about young British "the 65+ weren't in the EU during their 20s so they surely know better than than the 20s of nowadays, and the 18-24 of nowadays aren't even done with their studies while 18-24 of the 1970s were already working and making a family".

Did you hear about the young Brits who regret they vote because *they did not know that they vote is counted*. Oh another people who do not understand how democracy works, cute. Same kind of people call for another referendum. There is not another referendum. Both Cameron and Farage have said that this is only one referendum in UK and the result will be forever. Farage has also said that every single one vote is counted. I think, these young Brits rather cared more about fighting for LGBT/Muslim right than leaning about how democracy works.

4. consequences and EU - So European parlament, commision and others tried to be quite ok-ish and friendly. Still, some of them are a bit furious. Farage's and Le Pen's speech in European parlament are quite good. It shows middle finger to elites which is good for ordinary citizen. On the other hand, Martin Schulz showed that he is out of reality.
However, Londoners showed how tolerant they are. Look at the video what happened to Boris Johnson that morning after Brexit. Very tolerant left, right?

Still, Brexit is win of normal people over rich and elites. It is win over establishment. It is win over European union which, nowadays, behave like soviet union and thanks to this win, it's going to trigger more leaving.(second picture in spoiler) This is last chance of EU to be reformed but main representatives of EU have already said that they do not want to reform EU. They want to have big bureaucratic super state which rule over national states and dictate everybody what they should do. There is real reason why EU is called fourth reich (Merkel?).

5. Pearls of Internet

So that's it. It think, you've got my opinion on Brexita and I can only add that what have seen so far on Internet, I feel that people are quite happier, even I have quite good mood. It is just that kind of event that make common people happy, when they see how nobility and rich people lose their money. It is good time.



As for Czexit, it is quite strong. IIRC, our PM promised that if Brexit won, we'd have our own referendum about leaving EU.



1.
  https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/brexit-is-britains-trump?utm_source=vicefbuk
  http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber
2.
  https://www.rt.com/business-projects/348345-richest-people-losses-brexit/
3.
  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email
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Tìtstewan

There was a lot of populism and some topics were not discussed objectively. Nobody said (at least not in the news I've read) that the economy will collaps, but there was, of course, some warnings that a Brexit will have a significant influence on the economy. As for trading with the UK, Obama is right somehow. The USA and some other big states have some priorities and the EU has, as a big market, a higher priority. Also, it requires time and money to etablish new treaties and it is more efficient to deal with one group of states than many small states.
Regarding the voters, I was surprised when I have read an article about Google search stats. A lot of people apparently searched for informtion about the EU after the vote. I don't know have many people actually searched, but shouldn't one get information about the thing one decide before voting?
Democracy is not always useful and kind of inefficient rearding making long-time decisions. A referendum in Germany would need to reach some certain criterias to be valid, for example, one need a 2/3 marority for a successful referendum.

If the elite is what worries the people, in my opinion, it would be weird, because, there was and there will be elites, always. And if there will be a revolution that take down the "old" elites, they will be replaces by a new elite rather quickly. I don't think that the EU has more bureaucracy that a normal state has. I believe that calling the EU as "fourth Reich" is ridiculous, really.

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Blue Elf

Well, first bad result is here - some Englishmen are saying "Go home" to foreigners, even to those who live in UK for tens years. Seems that they went out of reality - why someone, who has all permissions ok, has job, pays taxes etc should leave just because some amount of people (apparently not all of them knowing what they do) decided to disconnect EU. As our PM said, it's not end of world and not even end of EU (too bad....), but it looks like end of old good English gentlemen.
Of course Britains can leave (and if Mr. Schultz is not comfortable with their decision, he can leave too), but it doesn't give them any right  to exclude anyone out of their country. I believe that if foreigners really would decide to left UK, it makes quite big troubles for UK. But some people really behave as if foreigners steal them job or something. I'm afraid that main result of brexit will be bad behavior between people, who lived together (mostly) peacefully so far. Questions is what Scotland will do - leave UK, does not leave? And other countries? Netherland, Greece, Slovakia, others ? There were "leave requests" in these countries too.
As for financial effect - there will be some turbulences for sure, but it will be solved during the time - if all involved parties make reasonable decisions and agreements. I see no reason why everyone shouldn't be ok, when we all cooperate on fair basis.

And how EU answers to brexit? Instead of showing some reasonable attitude, one of first results is, that English will not be anymore official language of EU - as the only user of this language is leaving. How typical.....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tìtstewan

Quote from: Blue Elf on June 30, 2016, 02:35:49 PM
Well, first bad result is here - some Englishmen are saying "Go home" to foreigners, even to those who live in UK for tens years.
This sound like racism...

Quote from: Blue Elf on June 30, 2016, 02:35:49 PM
And how EU answers to brexit? Instead of showing some reasonable attitude, one of first results is, that English will not be anymore official language of EU - as the only user of this language is leaving. How typical.....
I think some EU politicans are not really amused about the result of the british referendum. As for the official language, if I am not mistaken, in Ireland one still speak English and it is still an international language.

The Brexit is still uncomplete. Even with the referendum's result the british parliament can veto it and the UK could remain in the EU.

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 01, 2016, 12:35:17 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on June 30, 2016, 02:35:49 PM
And how EU answers to brexit? Instead of showing some reasonable attitude, one of first results is, that English will not be anymore official language of EU - as the only user of this language is leaving. How typical.....
I think some EU politicans are not really amused about the result of the british referendum. As for the official language, if I am not mistaken, in Ireland one still speak English and it is still an international language.
Irish selected Gaelic as their official language, so English was really used only by British members. Sorry I do not include link - I'm reading Czech sources only.
Quote
The Brexit is still uncomplete. Even with the referendum's result the british parliament can veto it and the UK could remain in the EU.
This. So far it is just storm in the bottle - people decided, but no official action was taken (and it is not clear when it will be, if ever will be). From this point of view some people behaves like idiots.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


jakesulley

I'm so sad that Brexit happened, I have so many British friends living in Europe, but I hope they will be okay. 

Vawmataw

#8
Remember, Europe has lived for centuries without the European Union.
However, in the current state this could harm the smaller, more dependent countries.

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 01, 2016, 12:35:17 AM
The Brexit is still uncomplete. Even with the referendum's result the british parliament can veto it and the UK could remain in the EU.
I think they won't do it unless they like drama. It would be a lack of respect to the 51.9% who voted Brexit. The Queen almost never refuses, so she will avoid drama too and give the royal assent. Remember that even if it's the worse or the best idea ever, a majority of people has spoken in favour of an idea. That's the democracy. There's already a lack of it (*cough* elections *cough*). Disagreeing is democracy, but disregarding an opinion isn't.

UK has also a lot of exceptions granted too. However, I hope they won't grab candies in the bowl before leaving.

I would be a bit pro-EU though, even if I live in good conditions outside these EU conditions (euro, Schengen, etc.).
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Blue Elf

#9
Seems that no architect of brexit want to bring it to the end. Nigel Farage - resigned to be leader of UKIP. Boris Johnson - doesn't want to candidate for prime minister of UK. It looks, like some people wanted to win - and when they won, they don't want lead the country. It says a lot....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


jakesulley

Any Brits here actually vote?

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Blue Elf on July 06, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
Seems that no architect of brexit want to bring it to the end. Nigel Farage - resigned to be leader of UKIP. Boris Johnson - doesn't want to candidate for prime minister of UK. It looks, like some people wanted to win - and when they won, they don't want lead the country. It says a lot....
I guess, they now see what they have done, lol. It seems that nobody really want to do that step to activate article 50...

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jakesulley

Just watched this link

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

I literally couldn't shake my head any more. To think that some idiots said 'i voted leave but didn't actually think my vote would matter, now I regret it'. It's astounding. The stupidity of the British people. I'm shocked.

Blue Elf

Apparently a lot of people didn't know what they vote for and that their opinion has weight. All of them thought they do not leave, and now are surprised they do. New referendum seem to be out of game, so probably there is no way back (except new elections), although no official steps to leave were taken so far.

Polish people living in Britain for many years, even those born in UK, are told to leave back to Polland. Result of referendum even separates english families - I read about woman, which voted to stay, while her parents voted to leave and now they avoid each other. Really bad result.
Some people still live in age when Britain was center of world, but this is not valid in these times.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


jakesulley

Hmm it's probably the biggest decision to affect the entire UK in my lifetime at least. I'm saddened that they took this step, but hey...that's what they voted for, and that's what they get.

Blue Elf

According researches, about 600 thousand british people plan to leave UK and work in EU. Mostly they plan to relocate into Germany, what could help decrease lack of experts needed in Germany. That's quite interesting number, it probably causes some difficulties in UK - and may need to get some foreign workers, which are now being sent home (by some British). Really they get, what they wanted....

New Iron lady was established - PM Cameron was replaced by Theresa May (although Cameron planned resign in few months originally). Although she voted for Remain, she will respect result of referendum and finish brexit. No new vote, no way back. Lu hasey.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

#16
I don't know why Germany is a popular choice.

Here's the ministry of the new Prime Minister of the UK Theresa May.
Boris Johnson, former mayor of London and pro-Brexit activist is now in May's cabinet.
There is even a Brexit secretary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_ministry
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement_May
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jakesulley

Looks like Theresa May is someone that people respect anyway. Good choice for Britain

Blue Elf

Choosing Johnson is interesting idea. Based on various sources we can expect something like second Donald Trump. They laugh at him on Twitter.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

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