Crimean crisis, will Crimea join Russia?

[baritone]

nobody has ever seen as the weapons was transported across the border between Ukraine and Russia

What??? 

http://inforesist.org/nato-predostavilo-dokazatelstva-perebrosa-rossiej-tankov-na-territoriyu-ukrainy/

If I understand correctly, the main evidence that the tanks came from Russia, is a wrong type of dazzle paint.

http://uainfo.org/yandex/356009-rossiyskiy-tamozhennik-rassekretil-perebrosku-tehniki-rf-v-ukrainu-foto.html

Now I understand why the Ukrainian army shelled the Russian territory. During the July 13 shelling has been destroyed the house in Russia, one person was killed and two were wounded.
And amazed that Russian tried to smuggle 100 tanks at once. As Ukrainian army was encircled near the border and the border again under the control of separatists, with such volumes of smuggling Russian will be able to supply Girkin more tanks than in the whole of the Ukrainian army in one day. 

Also there is a lot of weapons which Ukrainian army don't have.

Famous blogger Colonel Cassad also said that together with humanitarian aid from Russia comes weapons.
But I still wonder why the smuggling of tanks can not be seen while crossing the border.

Donetsk militia takes control of Ukrainian anti-air installation
probably from here?

When the separatists had few weapons, they obtained it, capturing air defence posts. After taking small arms, they destroyed anti-aircraft missile complexes, because they could not use them.

[Kemaweyan]

Now I understand why the Ukrainian army shelled the Russian territory. During the July 13 shelling has been destroyed the house in Russia, one person was killed and two were wounded.

That's a lie. What could be the reason to attack Russian territory? It's stupid. After that Putin can send troops officially, right? But everybody understands that Ukrainian army did not attack Russian territory. Probably terrorists did it.

But I still wonder why the smuggling of tanks can not be seen while crossing the border.

There are nobody except terrorists and Russian troops on the border that they are controlled. Who should see that? But there are Russian tanks in Donbass (and this). How them came here?

When the separatists had few weapons, they obtained it, capturing air defence posts. After taking small arms, they destroyed anti-aircraft missile complexes, because they could not use them.

Girkin said that they have anti-aircraft missile complex and can use that. Also there is a photo.

[Tsanten Eywa 'eveng]

President Obama Responds to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2014/07/17/president-obama-responds-malaysia-airlines-flight-17

President Obama calls to President Poroshenko of Ukraine aboard Air Force One to discuss the tragic crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. July 17, 2014.


This afternoon, aboard Air Force One, President Obama placed separate telephone calls to President Poroshenko of Ukraine and Prime Minister Najib of Malaysia to discuss the tragic crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

Here's a readout of the President's call with President Poroshenko of Ukraine:

President Obama spoke with Ukrainian President Poroshenko this afternoon to discuss the tragic crash of flight Malaysian Airlines 17. President Poroshenko welcomed the assistance of international investigators to ensure a thorough and transparent investigation of the crash site. President Obama assured him that U.S. experts will offer all possible assistance immediately. The Presidents emphasized that all evidence from the crash site must remain in place on the territory of Ukraine until international investigators are able to examine all aspects of the tragedy.

And a readout of President Obama's call with Prime Minister Najib of Malaysia:

President Obama called Malaysian Prime Minister Najib today to express condolences to the people of Malaysia for the terrible loss of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine, as well as all the families who lost loved ones in this tragic event. The President told the Prime Minister that United States has offered immediate assistance to support a prompt international investigation. President Obama reaffirmed the strength of the friendship between the United States and Malaysia and underscored that the United States stands ready to provide any assistance or support necessary.

Bernadette Meehan is Deputy Spokesperson of the National Security Council.

[Kemaweyan]

Terrorists convey the Buk to Russian border. There is absent one rocket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0



Hours before the crash, Russia closed four airways near the Ukrainian border, including one that was a continuation of Flight 17's route.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=0

[baritone]

Now I understand why the Ukrainian army shelled the Russian territory. During the July 13 shelling has been destroyed the house in Russia, one person was killed and two were wounded.

That's a lie. What could be the reason to attack Russian territory? It's stupid. After that Putin can send troops officially, right? But everybody understands that Ukrainian army did not attack Russian territory. Probably terrorists did it.

The link that you gave me, says that Ukrainian Army was shelling at this time in this place. They wanted to destroy 100 Russian tanks. Reasonable to assume that the shells that hit the house on the territory of Russia at this time, took off from Ukrainian cannons.
Nobody think that this somehow offends the honor of the Ukrainian army. This could happen to anyone. Ukraine do not rich enough to use cannon shells with GPS navigation. But it would be better if after such incidents Ukrainian government apologized and offered to compensate for the damage, instead of blaming others.

Hours before the crash, Russia closed four airways near the Ukrainian border, including one that was a continuation of Flight 17's route.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=0

At the link that gave Kemaweyan, there is a map of the flight and closed zones.
I advise also to see how this flight flew in previous days. Previously, he flew outside the combat zone, and only on July 17 he was sent flying over Donetsk.

Spoiler

The Russian Defense Ministry reminded that the route and crash point are within reach of two Ukrainian anti-aircraft missiles S-200 and three Buk-M1. In addition, the aircraft observed radar 9s18 "Dome" of the complex Buk-M1.
http://itar-tass.com/proisshestviya/1327288
As I understand it, it was assumed that the separatists have only launcher, without radar 9s18 "Dome." Military claimed that the probability of getting on a plane at an altitude of 10,000 meters by Buk-M1 missile without the aid of additional radar so small that it is unlikely that anyone would try to shoot. In addition, this area was closed to civil aviation.

Now every fact confirming the guilt of one side of the conflict, there is a fact that would show the guilt of the other, so it is better to wait for the results of the investigation. Given that the Air Defense of Ukraine now denies that their missile hit a passenger plane over the Black Sea in 2001 during a military exercise with anti-aircraft missile system S-200, finding out the truth will be difficult. But separatists and Ukrainian government have promised that they will create all the conditions for the investigation.

[Kemaweyan]

The link that you gave me, says that Ukrainian Army was shelling at this time in this place. They wanted to destroy 100 Russian tanks.

Ukrainian army attack those Russian tanks on Ukrainian territory.

Reasonable to assume that the shells that hit the house on the territory of Russia at this time, took off from Ukrainian cannons.

Or maybe terrorists did it in the same time to blame our army. Actually they did it in Slovyansk and now in other towns...

[baritone]

The link that you gave me, says that Ukrainian Army was shelling at this time in this place. They wanted to destroy 100 Russian tanks.

Ukrainian army attack those Russian tanks on Ukrainian territory.

They had every right to do so.

Reasonable to assume that the shells that hit the house on the territory of Russia at this time, took off from Ukrainian cannons.

Or maybe terrorists did it in the same time to blame our army. Actually they did it in Slovyansk and now in other towns...

Why complicate things? You mean to say that all the shells that shoot in a hurry, without zeroing, fly to the goal? Why talk about the shots that make the terrorists, if some of Ukrainian army shells also fly into the territory of Russia?

[Kemaweyan]

Ukrainian army is afraid to shoot toward Russian border. But some people saw as terrorists did it.

Also please answer the three question from this page.

[baritone]

Ukrainian army is afraid to shoot toward Russian border. But some people saw as terrorists did it.

Of course they are afraid, but they still have to shoot, and some shells just on the principle of their action fly into Russian territory. Let us remember the story when one of the Ukrainian APC mistakenly drove into the territory of Russia and got stuck there. Then, to help them come to the second APC, and with Russian border guards at gunpoint, the crew of first APC brought to Ukraine.
So that the fear of provocation is a relative term. Soldiers just try not to get caught, but we are not obliged to believe them when they lie.

Also please answer the three question from this page.

The answer to all three questions is elementary simple: because this is "casus belli"

By the way, about the claim that the separatists themselves destroyed Slavyansk. Sloviansk residents still do not believe this, although they have "liberated" from the power of "terrorists." Look at the message of one of the Ukrainian journalist.

[bommel]

Now those dorks shot down a civilan airplane. Do you know what I think? They can't agree on peace (both parties!) so a third party should nuke the f*cking hole country! Idiots deserve this. No more war parties, no more war. It's that simple.

Edit: I apologize for my rude language, I overreacted. Fighting war with no war won't help the situation, but I'm just pretty upset.

[Tìtstewan]

From a German news:

21:07 Uhr: Rebellenführer äußert bizarre Verschwörungstheorie
Ein Anführer der prorussischen Separatisten in der Ukraine hat mit einer bizarren Verschwörungstheorie zum Abschuss der Malaysian-Airlines-Maschine für Aufsehen gesorgt. Igor Girkin deutete in einem Interview an, dass viele der Passagiere von Flug MH17 bereits tot waren, bevor die Maschine abhob. Er habe von Leuten am Absturzort gehört, dass "eine erhebliche Zahl der Leichen nicht frisch waren", sagte er der Webseite "Russkaja Wesna". Einige seien blutleer gewesen, andere hätten verfault gerochen.

Igor Girkin mentioned, that the passenger was already dead before the plane took off...

...no comment

[bommel]

Meh, I'm getting real tired of that crap! What kind of weed did they smoke?!

[archaic]

Now those dorks shot down a civilan airplane. Do you know what I think? They can't agree on peace (both parties!) so a third party should nuke the f*cking hole country! Idiots deserve this. No more war parties, no more war. It's that simple.

If only it was.

[bommel]

If only it was.

Oh it is. No people = no war.

Now the rebels are preventing OSCE observer access to the crash site. Seems like they have to hide something. THere are reports stating that some of the guards seem to be intoxicated - yeah, armed drugheads!

[archaic]

Some people - all of them = genocide.

Armed drugheads who (it appears) are guilty of most three hundred counts of homicide.
I hope they are tried for these murders.

[baritone]

From a German news:

21:07 Uhr: Rebellenführer äußert bizarre Verschwörungstheorie
Ein Anführer der prorussischen Separatisten in der Ukraine hat mit einer bizarren Verschwörungstheorie zum Abschuss der Malaysian-Airlines-Maschine für Aufsehen gesorgt. Igor Girkin deutete in einem Interview an, dass viele der Passagiere von Flug MH17 bereits tot waren, bevor die Maschine abhob. Er habe von Leuten am Absturzort gehört, dass "eine erhebliche Zahl der Leichen nicht frisch waren", sagte er der Webseite "Russkaja Wesna". Einige seien blutleer gewesen, andere hätten verfault gerochen.

Igor Girkin mentioned, that the passenger was already dead before the plane took off...

...no comment

So he believes that his people could really shoot down civilian aircraft and tries to justify himself.
This is in fact the most plausible assumption, because Ukrainian army could launch anti-aircraft missiles only against separatists Su-25, and he too small, they could not be mistaken. But separatists could mix the Boeing-777 and An-26.

Although it could be a lot of options. It is said that two small military aircraft flew close to Boeing, and then witnesses reported that someone escaped by parachute. If we succeed to find the military plane, which was shot down along with Boeing, we can understand more about what happened there.

Now those dorks shot down a civilan airplane. Do you know what I think? They can't agree on peace (both parties!) so a third party should nuke the f*cking hole country! Idiots deserve this. No more war parties, no more war. It's that simple.

It is necessary to fix the boundary between the territory of Ukraine, and the territory of the separatists. Somehow Girkin will accept the fact that his campaign to capture Kiev will be canceled.

The only thing that saddens me that Kolomoysky and other Ukrainian oligarchs will not answer for their crimes against the Ukrainian people. But Putin will be pleased.

[bommel]

Maybe my first reaction was too excessive, I apologize for that. But I'm really getting mad about the whole situation. For peace, you need all people to play by the rules, but for war you just need a few insurgents. That's sad :-( And it's sad that Russia supports this conflict by providing equipment and training to the rebels, we can see where this has lead to. And they won't even accept their guilt, instead they come up with some crazy consipracy theories.

BTW I'm not against Russia in general, for example I tried learning Russian some time ago, I think it is an interesting country. But I really don't like how their political system has developed over the last years (freedom of press and speech, Internet surveillance, treatment of NGOs and political opposition, ...). This is true for some other countries as well, even some western countries who claim to be the "shelter of freedom and democracy". IMHO a true democracy has to deal with criticism - and not by suppressive laws and police brutality.

[Kemaweyan]

Ukrainian army could launch anti-aircraft missiles only against separatists Su-25

Stop! You really believe that? If you mean this, then it is not a real Su-25. It's just a museum model of Su-25, there is not some necessary parts. Actually that's just a fuselage with some other visible parts. Same thing with tanks from monuments like T-34: they can not shoot, some of them even can't move...

Therefore there are no Ukrainian anti-aircraft missiles in ATO area. That is not necessary.

The only thing that saddens me that Kolomoysky and other Ukrainian oligarchs will not answer for their crimes against the Ukrainian people. But Putin will be pleased.

Ukrainian people want Yanukovich to answer for his crimes. But Putin protects him... Also we want Putin to answer, but that also seems impossible now. Also you are communist and hate oligarchs, but you support Putin who is oligarch too (at least he is a part of oligarchic government in Russia; or there are no oligarchs in Russia?). So I don't understand why you meddle into Ukraine though there are a lot of problems in your own country

BTW I'm not against Russia in general, for example I tried learning Russian some time ago, I think it is an interesting country. But I really don't like how their political system has developed over the last years (freedom of press and speech, Internet surveillance, treatment of NGOs and political opposition, ...). This is true for some other countries as well, even some western countries who claim to be the "shelter of freedom and democracy". IMHO a true democracy has to deal with criticism - and not by suppressive laws and police brutality.

I completely agree.

[Tìtstewan]

Well, this whole topic is very complicated. As far as I remember me, the previous government (that with Yanukovich) planned originally to sign that treaty from the EU, but as they read the terms of that, they won't sign that EU treaty anymore and turned their view to Russia. But a lot of people didn't like that way and that Maidan protest has started. The old government did some crime on the civilian, there was also corruption etc.
After that, as he fled from Ukraine, suddenly the crimea crisis started...we know what is happen. After that, some separatists in Eastern Ukraine wanted to join to Russia to like Crimea. So, we have this problem what we are seeing/reading the the news  every day.
Now I'm curious, do the Ukrainian civillian know what is written in that EU treaty and especially what the gouverment have to do plus the duties they have to follow, if your government has signed it? I live in the EU, and I can say that many stuff are good, but also there are a lof of stuff that are bad and rather stupid. There is also the critiques that the US government puts theirs fingers into our gouverment (see that NSA and spy scandal here) And our councellor is blind and many people says that she is "americanophil". Also, she want to sign that TTIP but MANY people are against it here. In this case, I would be happy to live in a country, which won't sign every trash treaty which is against the civilian's health and the environment... Most stuff are only useful for big companies and their profits and power.
The danger is that the Ukrainian government did something similar with that EU-treaty. I don't know the details of that treaty but I'm sure that it contains some not nice terms....




Now I read in the news, that separatist have stolen the passenger's money, jewelery and credit cards... (not sure if true)

[Kemaweyan]

Now I read in the news, that separatist have stolen the passenger's money, jewelery and credit cards... (not sure if true)

It seems true. There is a lot of criminals, many of them were in prison (Yanukovich twice was in prison too, therefore a lot of Donbass people supported him). So I'm not confused about that...