Crimean crisis, will Crimea join Russia?

[bommel]

Now I read in the news, that separatist have stolen the passenger's money, jewelery and credit cards... (not sure if true)

It seems true. There is a lot of criminals, many of them were in prison (Yanukovich twice was in prison too, therefore a lot of Donbass people supported him). So I'm not confused about that...

What the ...? First they shot down a civilian airplane, then they came up with crazy conspiracy theories about this incident, and now the steal from the dead. Give me a reason why we shouldn't bomb these dorks to the moon.

[baritone]

Ukrainian army could launch anti-aircraft missiles only against separatists Su-25

Stop! You really believe that? If you mean this, then it is not a real Su-25. It's just a museum model of Su-25, there is not some necessary parts. Actually that's just a fuselage with some other visible parts. Same thing with tanks from monuments like T-34: they can not shoot, some of them even can't move...

Well, it means that a Russian Su-25 flew abroad, bombed the Ukrainian army and flew back on July 14. 

Therefore there are no Ukrainian anti-aircraft missiles in ATO area. That is not necessary.

Since radar BUK-1M work and the presence of air defense missiles of Ukrainian army in ATO area hardly doubt, this means that the Ukrainian army decided to bring down a Boeing because other targets in the air it had not expected.

I remind you that every propaganda message has a specific purpose. Until you do not understand the purpose of message, you can not get any information. This message was intended to raise the belief in a quick victory.

The only thing that saddens me that Kolomoysky and other Ukrainian oligarchs will not answer for their crimes against the Ukrainian people. But Putin will be pleased.

Ukrainian people want Yanukovich to answer for his crimes. But Putin protects him... Also we want Putin to answer, but that also seems impossible now. Also you are communist and hate oligarchs, but you support Putin who is oligarch too (at least he is a part of oligarchic government in Russia; or there are no oligarchs in Russia?). So I don't understand why you meddle into Ukraine though there are a lot of problems in your own country

First, I am a Trotskyist. Do you need the explanation of the difference between Trotskyites and Stalinists?
Secondly, we do not forget about Putin, although we calm after the battle in 2012.
Third, the propaganda about the terrible Putin aims to make you ignore all the problems created by the power of the oligarchs.
Fourth, nobody can live on propaganda. When you understand this and try to resent, those people who are now fighting against the "terrorists" on the Donbas will kidnap and kill you.
However, sometimes they are already doing it.

BTW I'm not against Russia in general, for example I tried learning Russian some time ago, I think it is an interesting country. But I really don't like how their political system has developed over the last years (freedom of press and speech, Internet surveillance, treatment of NGOs and political opposition, ...). This is true for some other countries as well, even some western countries who claim to be the "shelter of freedom and democracy". IMHO a true democracy has to deal with criticism - and not by suppressive laws and police brutality.

I completely agree.

Everyone would agree with this.
Last year me and a few of my comrades arrested by the police, and we still have not been able to challenge in court the arrest, although the law and the Supreme Court of Russia Interpretations says that the city authorities were guilty of this.

[bommel]

Everyone would agree with this.
Last year me and a few of my comrades arrested by the police, and we still have not been able to challenge in court the arrest, although the law and the Supreme Court of Russia Interpretations says that the city authorities were guilty of this.

I'm sorry to hear that!

[Tìtstewan]

Everyone would agree with this. Last year me and a few of my comrades arrested by the police, and we still have not been able to challenge in court the arrest, although the law and the Supreme Court of Russia Interpretations says that the city authorities were guilty of this. I'm sorry to hear that!

I'm also sorry to hear that!

Well, the problem we have is the tons of propaganda, we can't be sure if news X is correct or not. The media in Germany are sometime stupid and tend to believe propaganda to generate clicks and viewes, no matter if it is from Ukraine, Russia, Separatists or whoever...

[Kemaweyan]

Well, it means that a Russian Su-25 flew abroad, bombed the Ukrainian army and flew back on July 14. 

July 14? It's a joke?

Since radar BUK-1M work and the presence of air defense missiles of Ukrainian army in ATO area hardly doubt

What do you mean? Why do you think that there was Ukrainian BUK?

Third, the propaganda about the terrible Putin aims to make you ignore all the problems created by the power of the oligarchs.

Propaganda? He stole Crimea. It's a propaganda too?

Fourth, nobody can live on propaganda. When you understand this and try to resent, those people who are now fighting against the "terrorists" on the Donbas will kidnap and kill you.
However, sometimes they are already doing it.

Please don't tell me this nonsense. And please don't tell me that people of Donbass fight against oligarchs They supported oligarchs all the time (Yanukovich and company) and now some of them are sponsors of separatism. BTW, Ukrainian communists too.

Well, the problem we have is the tons of propaganda, we can't be sure if news X is correct or not. The media in Germany are sometime stupid and tend to believe propaganda to generate clicks and viewes, no matter if it is from Ukraine, Russia, Separatists or whoever...

This is very interesting site about a propaganda and a lie in news: http://www.stopfake.org/en/news/

[baritone]

Now I read in the news, that separatist have stolen the passenger's money, jewelery and credit cards... (not sure if true)

On Saturday, the head of the separatists held a press conference.
Александр Бородай, брифинг по сбитому Боингу 19.07

He said the following:
1) Once they learned about the plane crash, they cordoned off the crash site, and tried to ensure that no one has touched it.
2) They could not agree with the Ukrainian government to cease hostilities near the site of the crash. Because of this, there is a danger that some shell explodes and the picture of the incident will be corrupted.
3) Temperature is high, the dead bodies of passengers are in places of residence of people, corpses decompose. One of the corpses has fallen into the bedroom to the old woman, but they can not remove it to prevent damage to the scene.
4) They will make every effort to preserve the scene intact, and provide security and hotel for experts, as well as all the conditions for the investigation.
5) He expressed gratitude to the OSCE observers, who came immediately to control the situation at the crash site, and condemned experts that delay the onset of work, threatening that the scene will be spoiled explosions of shells. He expressed concern that the delay in the start of the investigation caused by the desire of the Ukrainian authorities to obstruct the investigation.
6) He promised to provide security and hotel for relatives of the victims, if they want to arrive at the crash site, as well as the conditions to carry out dead bodies to home.

In response to the question, how could anyone steal valuables of passengers, he said that the area of ​​the scene was very great, and they took a long time to cordon off the scene, so he could not exclude the possibility of theft before it was installed security.

[Kemaweyan]

He lies. On Thursday Girkin said that separatists shot down the plain and even showed photos of a smoke from the crash site. He did not know that the plain is a Boeing (he said it's An-26) but now we all know that. So it's a fact. Also Borodai (a man on video) said on Thursday that if that is a Boeing, they did not shoot down it. So he also knew that they shot down the plane but if that plane is a Boeing they will negate this fact. He lied. So I think he lies now too...

[archaic]

In war the first casualty is always truth.

Both sides do nasty stuff while fighting, but neither wants to appear to be the bad guys so they spend a lot of effort trying to blame it on the other side.


I'll add this into the mix, this is about MH370, but amid the misinformation and counter misinformation - propaganda and counter propaganda, it's just possible that it could also apply to MH17.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2591402/MH370-flight-deck-fire-similar-one-broke-Boeing-model-2011-downed-missing-jet-claims-London-law-firm.html

[Kemaweyan]

Let's try analyze the facts:

1. 17 July one of leaders of separatists Igor "Strelkov" Girkin wrote that they shot down the plane. It fold near Torez (a town in Donbass). Though he said that it is Ukrainian An-26, he attached to the message two videos with a smoke from the crash site. Now that message is removed, but there is screenshot:



2. In the same day another leader of separatists Borodai answering the question about shot down Boeing said: «If that plane is Boeing, we did not that. The plane which falls near Torez is much smaller than Boeing.» So he also don't negate that separatists shot down the plane on Thursday and it fold near Torez.

3. Now we all know that the plane which fold near Torez is Boeing 777.

4. There are no other planes such An-26 which were shot down on Thursday.

It is not a propaganda against separatists, I used their own words (1 and 2) and the facts which no one negates (3 and 4) only. So who shot down the plane?

[archaic]

On the face of it, that appears conclusive.
Separatists get carried away, misidentify it and shoot it down.
Around three hundred men, women and children are killed.
This is the way this incident is reported here also, I suspect it is reported very differently on Russian news.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/russia-today-reporter-quits-ukraine-plane-propaganda.html
There are others who have quit because of the propaganda, including Liz Whal.

[Kemaweyan]

Separatists get carried away, misidentify it and shoot it down.

Right. Also Girkin wrote in that message «Though we warned: do not fly in our sky». It means that they was going to shoot down any planes.

I suspect it is reported very differently on Russian news.

There is a version of incident on Russian news that Ukrainian army wanted to shoot down Putin's plane which should fly from Warsaw to Moscow. But how it should fly? Probably this is the path:

Spoiler

[Tìtstewan]

I suspect it is reported very differently on Russian news. There is a version of incident on Russian news that Ukrainian army wanted to shoot down Putin's plane which should fly from Warsaw to Moscow. But how it should fly? Probably this is the path: Spoiler

Well, no one can easily shoot down a presidental's plane because it has defensive weapon for sure. Plus, one must know the path of the plane and the flight path of a presidental plane is usually secret.

[Tsanten Eywa 'eveng]

I suspect it is reported very differently on Russian news. There is a version of incident on Russian news that Ukrainian army wanted to shoot down Putin's plane which should fly from Warsaw to Moscow. But how it should fly? Probably this is the path: Spoiler

Well, no one can easily shoot down a presidental's plane because it has defensive weapon for sure. Plus, one must know the path of the plane and the flight path of a presidental plane is usually secret.

I agree there. You will be noticed and totally get the feds after you ass if you track the path of a presidential's plane.

Anyways, the airspace over Donetsk is completely closed now. No airplanes are flying over that area where MH17 was shot down. You can see passenger airplanes are avoiding that area.
Flightrader24 is showing a live feed map of airplanes across the world.
http://www.flightradar24.com/

[Kemaweyan]

Current situation in Donbass:

[baritone]

Igor Girkin mentioned, that the passenger was already dead before the plane took off...

I learned why Girkin said that the plane was carrying corpses. It turns out, the militants said that near some bodies there was no blood, and they decided that their heart is not beating at the time of the crash. Furthermore, it said that some of the corpses began to decompose, an hour after the crash. Now I understand why separatists wanted to pathologists of an international commission to quickly come to them.

I think this topic will be instructive for all of us in terms of what is propaganda
I hope all of you finally convinced that the separatists downed aircraft by anti-aircraft missile, which they received from Russia?
Now look, like little additional facts inverted picture of what happened. And get us used to look for rebuttal first while seeing propaganda.

1) Security Service of Ukraine introduced a recording of intercepted fighters conversations, who shot down civilian aircraft?
Bezler, who commanded the rebels, admitted that the conversation, which at the beginning of the recording, was after they shot down the Su-25. Experts argue that the next part of the record is a montage.

2) We saw a video, where separatists are trafficked to Russia anti-aircraft missiles launcher?
At the video we can see advertising billboard, showing that the entry was made in the city, controlled by Ukrainian army since May 11. So, that was a Ukrainian launcher. I wonder what happened to the rocket at the Ukrainian anti-aircraft launcher?

And military aircraft climbed to the passenger Boeing just before his fall, and approached to a distance of launching a missile . On this, as well as the locations of Ukrainian air defense systems in the area of ​​anti-terrorist operation, you can learn from the press conference of the Ministry of Defense of Russia. It was carried out with an English translation.

Брифинг Минобороны РФ по катастрофе Boeing 777_ 21 07 2014

3) By the way, it was revealed that some Carlos, who account in Twitter presented him as Ukrainian air traffic controller, and at the time of the disaster wrote about military aircraft that flew to the passenger Boeing, is a real person, an opponent of the new Ukrainian government. In late May of this year there was a report in the press about him.

4) Incidentally, the separatists have established a commission of inquiry of the investigators, prosecutors, who collected evidence. Many witnesses claim to have seen military aircraft near Boeing. However, without technical expertise debris price this testimony is small. But, by a strange coincidence, international experts of Aircraft Accident Investigation in any way can not go from Kiev to the crash site.

But if you think that it proves that Boeing downed by Ukrainian army, you are wrong. Propaganda has infinite number of moves.
US satellite, that could detect the launch of an anti-aircraft missiles, took over this place at the time of air crash, and the Americans claimed that the launch was made from the the separatists
position. But they have not yet submitted a picture of starting. So if they do show a picture and this picture shows that the rocket did was put by the separatists, the picture of the incident changed again.

I remember that when the Soviet Union created the first anti-aircraft missile and shot down the spy plane Bell U-2, US newspapers within a week accused the USSR that it knocked down peace research plane accidentally flown across the border. And all this week Khrushchev chuckled while reading the newspaper before reporting that the plane was shot down in the middle of the USSR, in the Urals region.


P.S. Ma Kemaweyan, you have a choose, who you are: a patriot of Ukraine, but an honest man trying to understand the situation, or a propagandist. If you're a propagandist, I have offered you a pretext to justify the presence of Ukrainian air defense systems in the area of the antiterrorist operation, and why they monitored the sky by radar before the crash of passenger aircraft. You can now once again agree that the separatists have Su-25, and it flew up to Boeing to shoot them down.

But let's put aside all that can disunite us, and and try to stay friends. Believe me, that the destruction of the Soviet Union and life in Russia gave me a wealth of experience. Your oligarchs infinitely similar to Russian oligarchs, as they were in the 1990s under Yeltsin. Look for an interview with one of them, Gennady Korban, who became assistant to the governor of Dnipropetrovsk region, and you will see the same mafioso who openly hired thugs in my country, Russia, and hired killers against their competitors.

Spoiler

Look how he boasts that hires militias. About one of these units, the battalion "Azov", Ukrainian press writes that it take only those who hold extreme nationalist (fascist) political views. International financial institutions require budget cuts of Ukraine, threatening that otherwise it can not rely on European integration. But the oligarchs, directing Ukraine, get the best opportunities for looting budget. When the poor will protest, oligarchs have nothing to answer the protests, but to use their thugs to terrorize the social activists. There is no doubt that people like Gennady Korban willing to use terror.

This is my opinion about what is happening in Ukraine, now you know it. And I have long understood your opinion, because I stuck to similar opinion in my youth, when the Soviet Union just began to fall apart. We will respect each other's opinions, and the future will show who is right.

[Kemaweyan]

1) Security Service of Ukraine introduced a recording of intercepted fighters conversations, who shot down civilian aircraft?
Bezler, who commanded the rebels, admitted that the conversation, which at the beginning of the recording, was after they shot down the Su-25. Experts argue that the next part of the record is a montage.

1. So Bezler is Russian agent? It's good that you don't negate this fact...
2. They're talking about pilots, but there is one pilot in Su-25. So that couldn't be Su-25. Probably they think that the plane is An-26 where many two pilots...
3. Who are those "experts"? I'm not surprised that Russian "experts" came to this conclusion.

At the video we can see advertising billboard, showing that the entry was made in the city, controlled by Ukrainian army since May 11.

This billboard means nothing. You're right, that is Ukrainian town. But nothing means that it's controlled by Ukrainian army. Probably this billboard was set up before separatists came there. And where do you see "May 11"?

3) By the way, it became clear that some Carlos, who account presented Ukrainian air traffic controller, and at the time of the disaster wrote about military aircraft that flew to the passenger Boeing, a real person, an opponent of the new Ukrainian government. In late May of this year there was a report in the press about him.

Carlos is a bot:

1. He does not know English (but all air traffic controllers must speak English).
2. He said that he is Spanish but in Ukraine all air traffic controllers must be Ukrainian citizens.
3. Native Spanish speakers say that his Spanish is not natural.
4. When it become clear that he is a bot, he removed his account.

Proof (in Russian)

4) Incidentally, the separatists have established a commission of inquiry of the investigators, prosecutors, who collected evidence. Many witnesses claim to have seen military aircraft near Boeing. However, without technical expertise debris price this testimony is small. But, by a strange coincidence, international experts of Aircraft Accident Investigation in any way can not go from Kiev to the crash site.

Where are photos or videos? Now everyone has mobile phones with cameras. That "military aircraft near Boeing" seems as UFO: there is a lot of witnesses, but no documentary proofs.



Now it makes no sense to talk about "military aircraft" or where the video with Buk was created. There are another proofs and I said those in one of the previous posts. And that is not a propaganda. You may continue to defend terrorists, but now it's clear that the plane was shot down by them. It's a fact.

But I would not be surprised if there will be found parts of air-to-air missile which "was launched from Ukrainian Su-25". Terrorists and their bosses from Russia had enough time to bring that from Russia...

[Tìtstewan]

Do we have any official radar images or photos by spy satelites?

[Kemaweyan]

No. But I think it's possible to fake any images However when separatists themselves say that they shot down the plane, it is not a fake. They was boasting that they shot down the plane while they did not know that the plane is passenger Boeing.

[baritone]

Do we have any official radar images or photos by spy satelites?

Pictures of radar and launchers that were in the area of the anti-terrorist operation, were shown during the conference. See it, it was carried out with an English translation.

In the video, which was presented by the Ukrainian authorities as proof that the separatists trafficked launcher from Ukraine to Russia, next to the launcher there is a poster advertising car center, which is located in the Krasnoarmiysk at street  Dnipropetrovsk, 34. This city is under the control of the Army of Ukraine from May 11, and located west of Donetsk, and quite far from the border. So that the separatists has that launcher before May 11, or that is an Ukrainian launcher. The Russian Defense Ministry does not cast doubt on the lack of anti-aircraft missiles on this Ukrainian launcher.

And here is a news report about Carlos, air traffic controller, who tweeted about the military aircraft that flew to the wrecked Boeing. And in May, he said in an interview that in the advice from the embassy he brought his family out of Ukraine in order to protect it from the constant threat of violence.
And in any case, his statements coincided with the testimony of witnesses, radar data of Russian armed forces, and data of Russian air traffic controllers. So he had the opportunity to watch the sky on the day of the crash. And if to be an air traffic controller, he must have Ukrainian citizenship, there is no evidence that Carlos is not a citizen of Ukraine. Recently Brazilian footballer who received Ukrainian citizenship, drafted into the Ukrainian army.

P.S. History with Carlos is a great example of what is propaganda.
Here are very convincing evidence that Carlos is not a real person, not a  air traffic controller, it is a false bloger that was lead by hired propagandist, so-called "kremlebot." The evidence was so convincing so that Twitter removed his microblog. However, on the day of the crash, he was sitting at the radar screen.

Update:

Also Girkin wrote in that message «Though we warned: do not fly in our sky». It means that they was going to shoot down any planes.

As so as I understand, that this particular phrase you consider the absolute proof that separatists shot down passenger plane?

Of course, it is prudent on their part to close its sky, so that it was no the air attacks, nor the transportation of military goods by air.
But on that day were air attacks on Donetsk from great heights, at which MANPADS can not shoot down planes. And instead of having to shoot down military planes, which were flying lower than a passenger aircraft, they decided to shoot down a passenger plane that was flying at a height such that hit the target without additional radar was unlikely?
Probably Uncle Putin sent them a lot of missiles, so that they could throw them anywhere. However, they still did not want to shoot at the attacking planes. And despite the abundance of missiles that they could not wait to release somewhere, they did not shoot at another passenger aircrafts, which flew nearby?
Likely, they are very wild men.  

Now seriously. In general, let the Americans show the pictures of what exactly the place anti-aircraft missile was fired. Prior to this, any assumptions that "separatists shot down the plane by mistake" are plausible, but compared with the available documentary evidence from Russian radars and satellite images are worthless.

[baritone]

There was found preliminary evidence that the plane was shot down by surface to air missiles.
But they make it even less likely assumption that the missile was fired without additional radar.

The former RAF pilot said an explosion in front of the aircraft would be consistent with the interception course a SAM would be expected to follow. "The last thing a ground-launched missile wants to do is play catch-up with an aircraft, it would look to get ahead of its target," he said.

The fact that the launcher can detect only those targets that are flying straight at her, and because of that a crew launcher can fire only at the plane, which he saw with his own eyes. Moreover, they need more time to climb to their workplace in the launcher.
Of course, in the Russian Defense Ministry on the basis of their radar measurements are already assuming a passenger Boeing was shot down, but officially they do not want say anything.

Given the fact that: 1) the Ukrainian authorities have made every effort to international experts as long as possible could not get to the crash site of the aircraft, 2) military aircraft bombed the road on which the Malaysian experts dare to go to the scene, although the Ukrainian leadership was made ​​aware that that they go, the Ukrainian government's role in the death of passenger plane becomes more and more interesting.