Crimean crisis, will Crimea join Russia?

Started by Tsanten Eywa 'eveng, March 18, 2014, 02:11:46 PM

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Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Quote from: baritone on April 16, 2014, 12:29:08 AM
The Civil War started.  >:(
Anyone who wants to win, will win if his side are miners.
Miners are against joining Russia because Donetsk mines are subsidized by Ukrainian state.
I think that because of this, the Russian government believes that joining the south-east of Ukraine against the interests of Russia.
However, subsidies necessarily will be canceled during Ukrainian association with the EU.
This enables federation supporters opportunity to negotiate with the miners.
So it is not yet known who will win.
I would like to see if in the war spilled less blood, but it is a little hope.

Can I ask you something? What side are you on? Are you against or with this?

baritone

Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 16, 2014, 07:55:41 AM
Can I ask you something? What side are you on? Are you against or with this?
I'm a Trotskyist. I'm on the side of the workers.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Quote from: baritone on April 16, 2014, 08:01:28 AM
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 16, 2014, 07:55:41 AM
Can I ask you something? What side are you on? Are you against or with this?
I'm a Trotskyist. I'm on the side of the workers.

No, not that. I meant if you are with the annexation of Crimea or against it?

Tìtstewan

#43
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 16, 2014, 08:19:10 AM
No, not that. I meant if you are with the annexation of Crimea or against it?
To be honest, I'm not happy to see that question here. :( This does not mean that one could not ask such a question, but I would be sad if this cause hates between us. It's a fact, that Crimea is Russian now, and I can't imagine, how the Ukraine could get Crimea back without any war. Also, if there were a recognized referendum, Crimea would go to Russia anyway...

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Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Quote from: Tìtstewan on April 16, 2014, 09:09:50 AM
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 16, 2014, 08:19:10 AM
No, not that. I meant if you are with the annexation of Crimea or against it?
To be honest, I'm not happy to see that question here. :( This does not mean that one could ask such a question, but I would be sad if this cause hates between us. It's a fact, that Crimea is Russian now, and I can't imagine, how the Ukraine could get Crimea back without any war. Also, if there were a recognized referendum, Crimea would go to Russia anyway...

Well, to be honest, I don't hate Russia. I really love the people of Russia :)
I have considered sometimes to visit Russia. I want to visit Moscow, and maybe travel to Star City, where the Russian space age started.
I am very dissapointed that Vladmimir Putin started this, it came like a surprise.

baritone

#45
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 16, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
I have considered sometimes to visit Russia. I want to visit Moscow, and maybe travel to Star City, where the Russian space age started.
I also want this, but I can not find the time.
3D-tour to Star City  :)
QuoteI am very dissapointed that Vladmimir Putin started this, it came like a surprise.
And I was really surprised. It was not in his interest. I thought he would refuse. But perhaps, in those circumstances, he could not to refuse.

P.S.  :-\  Putin admitted that "little green men" were the Russian military, which had to ensure that the referendum was held in Crimea. I thought it was Crimeans with Russian weapons, because I saw an interview of Crimean Tatars TV with one of the "polite people" who said he was from the Crimea, showing a passport and spoke with a southern accent.

P.P.S. Approval of Putin's words taken from false source. I missed so at the first time, so very ashamed.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Quote from: baritone on April 17, 2014, 03:36:31 AM
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 16, 2014, 09:14:09 AM
I have considered sometimes to visit Russia. I want to visit Moscow, and maybe travel to Star City, where the Russian space age started.
I also want this, but I can not find the time.
3D-tour to Star City  :)
QuoteI am very dissapointed that Vladmimir Putin started this, it came like a surprise.
And I was really surprised. It was not in his interest. I thought he would refuse. But perhaps, in those circumstances, he could not to refuse.

P.S.  :-\  Putin admitted that "little green men" were the Russian military, which had to ensure that the referendum was held in Crimea. I thought it was Crimeans with Russian weapons, because I saw an interview of Crimean Tatars TV with one of the "polite people" who said he was from the Crimea, showing a passport and spoke with a southern accent.

P.P.S. Approval of Putin's words taken from false source. I missed so at the first time, so very ashamed.

I alo want to travel to Baikonur Cosmodrone, that is where the first cosmonaut in space were launched from, but i am not sure if the public are allowed to visit this site.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

The meeting today in Geneva have came to an agreement.
Diplomats meeting for emergency talks on the crisis in Ukraine issued a joint statement Thursday aimed at de-escalating the tensions and ensuring the security of all Ukrainians.
It calls for all illegal armed groups to be disarmed, all illegally seized buildings to be returned to legitimate owners, and for all occupied public spaces to be vacated.
The statement followed talks lasting several hours between U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, his acting Ukrainian counterpart Andriy Deshchytsia and EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
Kerry said the sides had worked hard to narrow the differences between them.
Lavrov, giving a news conference, echoed the statement, as well as stressing the need for Russian speakers in Ukraine to be protected from discrimination.
The emergency talks in Geneva were called in the hope of resolving a deepening crisis that has seen armed pro-Russian protesters seize swaths of Ukraine.
The unrest in the restive east, which shares a border with Russia, has been spiraling so fast it has left diplomacy behind in the dust.


http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Kiev's embattled new leaders are struggling to reassert their authority in eastern towns largely controlled by armed pro-Russian separatists. They have tried dialogue and a show of force, both to little effect.
In the southeastern city of Mariupol, a gang of 300 attacked a Ukrainian military base Thursday, leading to gunfire between the two sides. In Donetsk, the self-declared chairman of the people's council said he wants a referendum by May 11 to ask residents if they wanted sovereignty.
And in Slaviansk, pro-Russian militants are firmly in control.
The Geneva gathering, held amid talk in the United States of fresh sanctions, was the first meeting since the crisis worsened.
Speaking earlier in the day in in a televised question-and-answer session, Russian President Vladimir Putin said the talks were important "to figure out how to get out of this situation."
However, he also reiterated his thoughts about Kiev's new interim government -- in place since pro-Moscow President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted in February after months of protests -- calling it "illegitimate" and without a national mandate.
Presidential elections in May are taking place under "unacceptable conditions," he added
"If the elections are to be legitimate, the constitution of Ukraine needs to be revised," he said.

In an ominous echo of what happened in Crimea just weeks ago, the Donetsk People's Republic wants to follow that region's lead and hold a referendum early next month, said Denis Pushilin, the self-declared chairman of the people's council. The referendum will essentially ask residents which country they want to be a part of: Russia or Ukraine.
Moscow annexed the Crimean Peninsula last month after its predominantly Russian-speaking residents voted yes in a referendum.
The moved was deemed illegal by Kiev and the West, but Putin has repeatedly defended it.

"The threats to Russian-speaking people were absolutely clear, and that is why people of Crimea voted for their future and asked Russia for help," he said.
"Russia never planned any annexation, never, quite the contrary."
Putin also said Russian forces had been active in Crimea in order to support local defense forces, the first time he has acknowledged the deployment of Russian troops on the Black Sea peninsula.
The interim authorities in Kiev said Thursday that Ukraine has tightened its border controls while efforts to contain the uprising in the east continue.
Sergey Astahov, a spokesman for Ukraine's Border Service, told CNN that it is restricting the entry of Russian males aged 16 to 60, letting them enter only under exceptional circumstances. He said the tighter checks are due to the ongoing anti-terror operation announced this week by the government.
Russian airline Aeroflot also said on its website that Ukraine was imposing tighter border controls on Russian men and Ukrainian citizens registered in Crimea and the Crimean city of Sevastopol.
Russia is demanding an immediate official clarification from Ukraine regarding the steps taken by the Ukrainian border services, the Russian Foreign Minister said in a statement Thursday.

Kiev and the West dispute Putin's claims that Russia is not involved in the current unrest in Ukraine's east. They accuse Moscow of backing the pro-Russian protesters, and point to the 40,000 Russian troops that NATO says are assembled near the Ukrainian frontier.
Moscow insists the troops are merely conducting exercises.
There are no Russian divisions in eastern Ukraine, Putin reiterated Thursday, adding that all evidence pointed to the groups causing the unrest being local residents.
He said the presence of tanks and planes constituted "a very serious crime" that authorities in Kiev were committing.
Moscow has warned in the past week that Ukraine was "on the brink of a civil war."
On Wednesday, U.S. President Barack Obama said Russia's actions risk more sanctions for the country.
"What I've said consistently is that each time Russia takes these kinds of steps that are designed to destabilize Ukraine and violate their sovereignty, that there are going to be consequences. And what you've already seen is the Russian economy weaker, capital fleeing out of Russia," Obama told CBS.
Obama has signed off on sending more non-lethal aid to the Ukrainian military, U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel announced Thursday.
The Pentagon is still not supporting lethal aid for Ukraine "because it could exacerbate the situation, which is what we do not want to do," a senior Pentagon official said.
"If we provide arms and ammunition, then we are in the fight. We don't want that."
Ukrainian lawmakers voted Thursday to reinstate military service in the country. Until it was dropped last year, it was compulsory for all males in Ukraine.
Lawmakers have now voted to bring it back because of what has been termed "Russian aggression." The legislation must still be signed off by the acting President.




Also while we talking about this, the Ukrainian city Slovyansk demands independence from Ukraine. The people of Slovyansk is on the pro-Russians side. Vladimir Putin has said he has not ordered Russian soldiers to invade Eastern Ukraine, but he admits, that it was Russian soldiers who entered Crimea before the election.
Ukrainian city demands independence

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

The Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk doesn't trust Russia, of the agreement that was made in Geneva yesterday. The Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov agreed that the pro-Russians were gonna put their weapons down and leave Eastern Ukraine.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/04/18/nr-intv-pleitgen-yatsenyuk.cnn.html


Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

It's good news that Russia has agreed that the pro-Russians are gonna remove their weapons and walk out of the public buildings in Eastern Ukraine, but now Russia don't think that will actually work.
There has now recently been shootings, and one has died
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/20/world/europe/ukraine-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Volker: Russia not serious Ukraine deal

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Vladimir Putin naming Eastern Ukraine as "Novorossiya".
A casual listener may have missed it, but many Ukraine-watchers raised their brow when Russian President Vladimir Putin used the weighty term "Novorossiya" or "New Russia" to refer to some regions in Ukraine on Thursday. "It's new Russia," Putin told the audience during his nearly four-hour long televised Q&A. "Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Odessa were not part of Ukraine in czarist times, they were transferred in 1920. Why? God knows."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/18/putin-novorossiya-ukraine_n_5173559.html?ir=WorldPost

To give you a little background, "Novorossiya" is an archaic term for an area that was controlled by Russia during the imperial czarist times of the 19th century. In The New Republic, Linda Kinstler explains that the name referred to "the formerly Ottoman territory that Catherine the Great conquered in the Russo-Turkish Wars," an area that is mostly comprised of what is now southern and eastern Ukraine.



When Putin chose to use this specific term to describe Ukraine's east on Thursday, many worried he was openly embracing the notion of an old imperial Russia, one which held control over what is now a sovereign country.

But Putin hasn't been the only one taking up the term recently. Rather, the president played into the slogans pro-Russia activists in eastern Ukraine have been chanting in recent weeks.

Reporting from Eastern Ukraine for Foreign Policy, Christian Caryl writes that some of the protesters in the region have been using the term "Novorossiya" to refer to an autonomous region they want to create, one with strong Russian allegiances. Caryl adds that given the importance of these regions for the Ukrainian national economy, such a move would be a gigantic blow to the already cash-strapped government in Kiev.

In order to really understand why the use of "Novorossiya" is causing many to take note, it's also helpful to understand one more term: Irredentism. As political scientist Stephen Saideman defines it, "irredentism is the effort to reunify a 'lost' territory inhabited by ethnic kin with either a mother country or with other territories also inhabited by ethnic kin."

By using the term "Novorossiya," Putin sounds like he's making exactly such a claim on the regions of eastern Ukraine, and even if it may be just a piece of political theater on his part, it's enough to raise alarm.


Putin signs decree to rehabilitate Crimean Tatars

http://rt.com/news/crimea-tatars-rehabilitation-putin-856/

Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree officially rehabilitating the Crimean Tatars and other ethnic minorities on the peninsula, who were deported en masse in 1944 by Joseph Stalin for alleged collaboration with Nazi invaders.

"We must make sure that as part of Crimea's integration into Russia, Crimean Tatars are rehabilitated and their historic rights restored," the Russian leader said during an official meeting in Moscow.
Tatars in Crimean number about 250 thousand – one eighth of the peninsula's population. Since gradually returning to the peninsula following their banishment, many have been locked in land disputes, and have struggled with a lack of political representation.
"The same decree outlines the socio-economic development of several territories that have been neglected, and where there has not only been no social progress, but the situation has actually deteriorated," said Putin.
When he first mooted the rehabilitation decree last month, Putin also proposed that Tatar becomes the third official language in the autonomy, alongside Russian and Ukrainian.
The decree also rehabilitates four other less numerous minorities – Armenians, Bulgarians, Germans and Greeks – who also suffered from Joseph Stalin's repressions during and after World War II.


Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

President of Ukraine, Oleksandr Turchynov, is re-launching the anti-terror measures across the country after it has been found two tortured bodies, dumped in a river. One of them was a gouvernment official, a member of the local parliament and belonged to the President's political party.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/22/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


"The terrorists who basically have taken the entire Donetsk region hostage have crossed the line with torturing and killing Ukrainian patriots," President Oleksandr Turchynov said.
Such crimes are committed with the support of Russian forces, he charged.
But a statement from a pro-Russian leader in Slaviansk rejects the President's claim, and highlights that there is a war of perceptions, too.
Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, the de facto mayor of Slaviansk, placed blame for the deaths on far-right Ukrainian nationalist extremists.
A pro-government party official told CNN that Rybak's family identified his body at the morgue Tuesday. But the competing claims persist.

Ukrainian official's body found in river

baritone

Ukrainian separatists did not want to join Russia, they want to enter the "customs union" with Russia now. They will never agree to surrender their weapons, even if Putin will arrive in Ukraine to ask them about this, because it would be negligence on their part. Civil war already underway by its laws. Separatists not yet fully control nor their territory nor their supporters. Most likely, the Ukrainian patriotic deputy, whose body was found by separatists, was killed by a "third force", and it was the nationalist extremists from Russia. I think this is the right "casus belli" for Kiev to convince his troops start fighting. Russian nationalists also want escalating conflict because it is the only hope to overcome the reluctance of Ukrainian separatists and the Russian government to join the south-west of Ukraine to Russia.
Quote from: Tsanten Eywa 'eveng on April 17, 2014, 12:15:10 PM
I alo want to travel to Baikonur Cosmodrone, that is where the first cosmonaut in space were launched from, but i am not sure if the public are allowed to visit this site.
It is possible.

bommel

#53
I really wonder what they are expecting. That they all will live in prosperity as soon as they got what they demand? No, there will be people in power who don't respect human rights, freedom of speech, etc. They will threaten and pursuit everybody who is "uncomfortable", i.e. dares to complain or think differently. For a few people the situation will improve but for the majority it usually gets even worse. We have seen this happen before in other countries, why should it be different now?

By the way, I don't want to take somebody's side in this conflict. I don't trust the news over here with their "Only Russia is responsible for this!" attitude - because that is not true. The western countries take a role in this too.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

The U.S have now sent soldiers to Poland to train in military exercises with the Polish military troops.
Just to now, it was not the U.S gouvernment who ordered this, this was a request by the Polish gouvernment. Poland is afterall bordering with the Baltic states including Russia and Ukraine, and Poland is fearing that Russian troops will invade Poland.
Poland joined NATO just 2 months ago, after Russia annexed Crimea.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/23/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t3




A contingent of U.S. Army paratroopers arrived in Poland on Wednesday, the first of what will be a "persistent presence" of U.S. troops as the crisis in nearby Ukraine continues to unfold.
The company-sized contingent will conduct training exercises with Polish counterparts and is visiting at the request of Poland.
The joint exercises are a symbol of force as the conflict in Ukraine between pro-government and pro-Russian factions continues unabated. The United States and Russia accuse each other of fomenting unrest in Ukraine.
The U.S. troops stood in formation at an airfield next to Polish troops as military leaders from both countries addressed them, reiterating the alliance between their nations.

"Poland has been there for the United States, and today, as the transatlantic community confronts Russia's unacceptable aggression against Poland's neighbor, Ukraine, a sovereign and independent state, we have a solemn obligation in the framework of NATO to reassure Poland of our security guarantee," said Stephen Mull, the U.S. ambassador to Poland.
The United States will maintain a presence in Poland at least through the end of the year, he said.
Russia has deployed what NATO estimates to be 40,000 troops near its border with Ukraine, something that has made other countries like Poland nervous.
The military exercises in the Polish city of Swidwin are "a result of what's going on in Ukraine," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said Tuesday. "What we're after here is persistent presence, a persistent rotational presence."
Four companies of paratroopers based in Italy will be sent to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia over the next few months for military exercises, he said.
Addressing the assembled troops from the U.S. and Poland on Wednesday, U.S. Army Maj. Gen. Richard C. Longo said the joint exercises are a manifestation of the strong commitment the two countries have to each other.
"Despite the uncertainty of the world and this region, I am certain of one thing about the United States Army in Europe: We have the capacity, we have the commitment, we have the will to fulfill our NATO obligations," he said.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

It seems like Cold War II is about soon to begin. NATO has found several Russian destroyers in the North Sea, and plans to chase them away. They were found between UK, Netherlands and Denmark.
This kind of event has happened before, when a Russian submarine was crossing over the Atlantic and was sneaking around the U.S waters. USA has said that it is my homecountry Norway's job to watch over Russian submarines, because this one passed very close to the coast of the most northern part of Norway in Finmark county.
NATO planes chase out Russian bombers

Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

My opinion on all this: Putin is pushing Russia back to the role that the old Soviet Union held, the counterbalance to the United States in a bipolar system. However, I don't think this accounts for China, which could indeed spin the world into a tripolar system. If you look at Putin's statements and the massive advances in Russian military tech and the expansion of the military, it become obvious fairly quickly, at least to me.
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baritone

Quote from: Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal'itan on April 24, 2014, 12:39:20 AM
My opinion on all this: Putin is pushing Russia back to the role that the old Soviet Union held, the counterbalance to the United States in a bipolar system. However, I don't think this accounts for China, which could indeed spin the world into a tripolar system. If you look at Putin's statements and the massive advances in Russian military tech and the expansion of the military, it become obvious fairly quickly, at least to me.
In the previous bipolar system, when a multinational corporation trying to rob someone using the U.S. government, one could defend himself with the help of the USSR. Russia will not to be such a defender, she has its own predatory corporations.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Your suggestion on this? Crime or justice? Vladimir Putin saw this as a criminal action, and is threatening Ukraine that this will get some serious consequences

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/24/world/europe/ukraine-gunmen-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Ukraine errupts into fresh violence

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

Is the world really ready for a World War III?
Russia has said they don't want to occupy Ukraine, but if the country get too unstable, they said they need to take action and get control of the pro-Russians to keep peace and order.
Well, then. Why can't they just start now, or done this a long time ago and help?
Vladimir Putin is a snake, a very slime snake. Why, and why can't he just understand that this is absurd and absolutely a wrong decision?

But, i don't trust Vladimir Putin. I am absolutely sure he has some other plans, lurking in his mind.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/25/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

War of words escalates over Ukraine

Kerry: Russia not keeping its word

Russia orders new military drills