Tsunami in Japan

Started by Le'eylan, March 11, 2011, 08:13:48 AM

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Human No More

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on March 23, 2011, 01:12:49 AM
I am going to weigh in on the nuclear topic.

The Japan situation is actually more good than bad, when looked at in the long term. There, you had three operating nukes that were knocked off line, and then shortly lost all cooling. This is very close to a worst-case accident. And what happened? There was not a serious meltdown. The containment in all three reactors worked as designed, and did not get breached. They were eventually able to get reasonably good control of the system, even though full power was not restored to the pumps. Despite the hydrogen explosions and severe damage to the outer buildings, the important protections held. Personally, I believe that the hydrogen was mainly from the spent fuel pools and not from the reactors themselves. Even with the spent fuel pools exposed to the outside, the actual amount of radiation released was small. Small enough that there will not likely be any long term effects. The site is not so badly messed up that it cannot be cleaned up. And despite the damage to the building on reactor number 4, that reactor may be able to eventually be placed back in service.

This incident shows that nuclear power, even under very bad conditions, can be safe within reason. The nuclear industry has never had an accident like this happen. What will be learned from this incident will ensure that some of the real troublesome things, like generator flooding and hydrogen explosions can be minimized. (From what I can see, the number 2 reactor building wasn't even damaged, even though the reactor is ruined.)

The spent fuel is not as big a hazard as the popular press makes it out to be. First of all, if the spent fuel is reprocessed, much of the usable fissionable material is recoverable. The US is one of the few nuclear countries that does not reprocess. We need to follow the rest of the world in this respect.

Once the spent fuel has sat for a few years, it generates a relatively small amount of heat. It is pretty inert stuff. After a few thousand years, the radiation is a tiny fraction of what it was when it was 'active'. I personally think we will eventually go back and recover our spent fuel because we will need materials that readily exist in it. The fuel components of the waste are good for thousands or even millions of years.

The number of people that die each year as the result of fossil fuel plants is much higher than any nuclear deaths, even when you include Chernobyl. Chernobyl was a catastrophe of the first order, as the reactor core (made of flammable graphite) actually burned. This spewed the extremely dangerous, just-after-being-critical fission products. Only tiny amounts of fission products were released at Fukishima. Most of the radioactive materials that were released were the less dangerous 'light' radionuclides.

The newest reactor designs have even more inherent safety to them. I was told that there could be a loss-of-cooling-accident just before lunch, and the operators could go take their lunch break, and deal with the loss of cooling after lunch.

The biggest disadvantage to nuclear is that the plants tend to attract extremists. I would rather deal with a spent fuel assembly than an environmental extremist any day!

I completely agree, but the main problem is educating the general ignorant public, as there is far too much hysteria over any mention of radiation at all, yet those same people happily take long distance flights, live in buildings built of brick or stone and on top of stone that emits xenon, burn fossil fuels, and all sorts of other activited that invovle exposure to radioactive particles. As for fossil fuel's death rate, it is far higher than nuclear's, both from accidents (coal mining, gas and oil exploration) and from related wars, primarily with oil, that bring the death toll into the tens of millions.
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archaic

True, but do we really need more leukemia and cancer clusters?

And wars for resources could, in the future, be fought for nuclear material.
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bommel

nuclear technology is not safe, no matter how safe it is according to politicians. You can't control it or stop it if you lose control.

Eana Ketuwong

How could this happen...we must help...
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Sіr. Ηaxalot

Quote from: bommel on April 01, 2011, 04:41:13 PM
nuclear technology is not safe, no matter how safe it is according to politicians. You can't control it or stop it if you lose control.

Energy Source              Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

Coal – world average               161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)
Coal – China                       278
Coal – USA                         15
Oil                                36  (36% of world energy)
Natural Gas                         4  (21% of world energy)
Biofuel/Biomass                    12
Peat                               12
Solar (rooftop)                     0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)
Wind                                0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)
Hydro                               0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)
Hydro - world including Banqiao)    1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)
Nuclear                             0.04 (5.9% of world energy)


Still safe enough. It has always been at least 10 years between all major nuclear incidents, and so far the Chernobyl accident is the only one that have had any major radiation releases to the outside.

Fossil fuels isn't especially safe for anything either in comparison. I'd say that the BP oil leak cause much more damage to the nature than this accident. Then we shouldn't forget the CO2 releases.

archaic

I see they now plan to safely dump 11500 tonnes of radioactive water into the sea.
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Sіr. Ηaxalot

#86
And they have estimated that if you eat fish and/or seaweed from the ocean just outside of the plant you will be exposed to ~0.5mSv, which is just ~15% higher than the normal background radiation.

archaic

Somewhat related:


OK, I don't actually expect shoals of mutant triclops fish, but it's not good is it?
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Amaya

So back onto the original topic from way back when...

Yatta!  I finally heard from my other friend in the earthquake affected area!  She and her family are okay as well, although she was only now able to get her computer up and running again so that she could reply to our email.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Eana Ketuwong

Quote from: archaic on April 04, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
I see they now plan to safely dump 11500 tonnes of radioactive water into the sea.
WHAT?!
Tumbling hard until 3 AM on a Wednesday night

Kamean

Quote from: Ean Kewong on April 07, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
Quote from: archaic on April 04, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
I see they now plan to safely dump 11500 tonnes of radioactive water into the sea.
WHAT?!
They already dump it.  :(
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Kamean

In fish have already found cesium. :o
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Sіr. Ηaxalot

Quote from: Ikranari on April 08, 2011, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: Kamean on April 08, 2011, 09:57:07 AM
Quote from: Ean Kewong on April 07, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
Quote from: archaic on April 04, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
I see they now plan to safely dump 11500 tonnes of radioactive water into the sea.
WHAT?!
They already dump it.  :(
oh no! Poor fishes  :'(
It's not like its any dangerous waste they've been dumping so far. The reason they have been dumping this is because they need storage for actually dangerous stuff.

archaic

I wish them luck, they're about due for some.
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Human No More

#94
Quote from: Sir. Haxalot on April 08, 2011, 11:16:21 AM
Quote from: Ikranari on April 08, 2011, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: Kamean on April 08, 2011, 09:57:07 AM
Quote from: Ean Kewong on April 07, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
Quote from: archaic on April 04, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
I see they now plan to safely dump 11500 tonnes of radioactive water into the sea.
WHAT?!
They already dump it.  :(
oh no! Poor fishes  :'(
It's not like its any dangerous waste they've been dumping so far. The reason they have been dumping this is because they need storage for actually dangerous stuff.
Exactly.

I present to you, these:
Fukushima scaremongers becoming increasingly desperate, Dead horse long ago flogged down to a mere red stain


The amount released into the water is less radiation than you can add to your yearly dose by the area you live in, the type of building, flights and medical procedures.
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"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Ftiafpi

Very true, the only real danger posed so far is that it's not safe to live near Fukishima now (or probably in the near future for short period of time) and this poses huge problems for cleanup (mostly just cost though). The only people in any real danger are the workers who are being exposed to high levels of dangerous radiation. The release of radioactive water is definitely bad but it's not as bad as any of the alternatives and it's definitely something that can be limited and cleaned up. There will definitely be harm done to the fish but given the severity of the problems I can only applaud the workers and design of the Fukishima plant. Just imagine what this would be if this were an oil rig or a oil refinery.

As an example, the 3 mile island incident was fairly similar to this (less radiation released but similar chain of events and release of radiation through cooling water into the river) and it was estimated that only a small number of people were affected and that there was no measurable increase in sickness or cancer in the surrounding region (though this has been disputed IIRC).

Human No More

Exactly - see the chart above, the maximum possible dose to ANYONE from Three Mile Island was just over a quarter of the amount received in a normal day.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
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"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Ftiafpi

Also, (not sure if it was mentioned) most of the isotopes released are short lived, they'll be gone within weeks.

Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

I still thinking about Japan of how it is there, this was the most terrible disaster I have seen in my entire life :(

Sіr. Ηaxalot

Haven't heard anything in a while, but it's Japan, they should be doing quite well by now :)