Uganda and LGBT rights

Started by Zusupa Tanhì, January 29, 2013, 03:05:55 PM

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Zusupa Tanhì


I was so horrified to watch this video. It taught me so much about how Evangelical Christians can and will do heartrending things to those who are not 'fit for the kingdom of god'. I cried while watching this because it's truly awful that almost an entire country could think this way and be poisoned by intolerance. Most of the people here, I think, will agree that this video is very sad.

But what can we do to raise awareness? Please comment and discuss.
Stay your blade from the flesh of the innocent.
Always be discreet.
Do not compromise the Brotherhood.
~The Assassin's Creed

Tìtstewan

Oh no! That's incredible! :o
So they start an idiologic war and make money by it.
Rarelly I saw an intolerancy like this...
Faysawtute ke tse'a! :( :'( ...keftxo!

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Zusupa Tanhì

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 29, 2013, 03:16:17 PM
Oh no! That's is incredible! :o
So they start an idiologic war and make money by it.
Rarelly I saw an intolerancy like this...
Faysawtute ke tse'a! :( :'( ...keftxo!

I agree. At one point in the video, it mentions donations and how people who give them do not know what they are really used for. I've been using my twitter to help get the word out. Maybe if we all did that it would help.

I guess it really goes to show that we need to know what we're getting ourselves into before donating stuff.
Stay your blade from the flesh of the innocent.
Always be discreet.
Do not compromise the Brotherhood.
~The Assassin's Creed

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 29, 2013, 03:20:28 PM

I guess it really goes to show that we need to know what we're getting ourselves into before donating stuff.

That is true of a lot of organizations. For instance, the Humane Society of the United States sounds benign enough. They are actually a radical animal rights group, who provide almost no mney at all (<1 %) to actually operating shelters.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Zusupa Tanhì

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on January 29, 2013, 03:28:45 PM
Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 29, 2013, 03:20:28 PM

I guess it really goes to show that we need to know what we're getting ourselves into before donating stuff.

That is true of a lot of organizations. For instance, the Humane Society of the United States sounds benign enough. They are actually a radical animal rights group, who provide almost no money at all (<1 %) to actually operating shelters.

*nod* Just goes to show.

Even the Salvation Army is dangerously tied to Christianity.
Stay your blade from the flesh of the innocent.
Always be discreet.
Do not compromise the Brotherhood.
~The Assassin's Creed

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 29, 2013, 03:20:28 PM
I agree. At one point in the video, it mentions donations and how people who give them do not know what they are really used for. I've been using my twitter to help get the word out. Maybe if we all did that it would help.
Here is need transparency fast. The church must show the was of donated money.

Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 29, 2013, 03:20:28 PM
I guess it really goes to show that we need to know what we're getting ourselves into before donating stuff.
Indeed.

I have watched a documentary about the donations in general. 1$ goes to Africa, 10$ comes back...


I've stopped to watch this video at 6th minutes...there's start with religious propaganda and that I can't see...that broke my hearth and shaken my belief in the humanity. :(

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

As is usually the case, there is a lot more to a story like this than meets the eye. Please read this with an open mind, as I am going to share some rather personal feelings here.

First, on the Christian side: It is no secret that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, and from a Biblical point of view, an abomination. In ancient Israel, under Judaeic law, homosexuality was punishable by death. As a Christian, I too believe that homosexuality is a sin, and I do not practice it, and never have practiced it. But the Bible also teaches that we should not condemn people who practice sin, because in one way or another, we are all sinners. However, God has shown me, through the lives of people who have crossed my path over the years, that people who practice homosexuality are valuable in God's eyes, can be 'saved', and can repent of their sin. We, as individual believers, are called to help people who want to repent of their sins. So as such, the best thing we can do is to engage people (in a positive manner) who live in homosexuality (or any other sin) but not participate in the sin. This will change far more lives than any form of coercion. As a result, God has arranged for quite a number of these people to cross my path, and a number of them are now even friends and coworkers.

Next, on the political side: Whenever there has been a very strong Christian practice in an area, a lot of 'sinful' activities go away. For instance, back in the 1870's, there was a huge Christian revival in Rochester, NY, where I lived for many years. This revival was so profound that it put most taverns and bars out of business in the town. Some of the 'blue laws' from that era still exist today. This sort of thing is happening in a number of countries today, like Uganda. For the most part, it is a good thing, and it benefits most people's lives. This video does a poor job of showing the overall positive effect of Christianity in Uganda, which I will address later.

Another political view: Any time you have a situation where there is a strong unitary influence over a society, there will arise extremist groups. What we are seeing happen in Uganda is an example of such extremism. No where does Christianity teach (even though it was practiced in ancient Israel under the Judeaic law) that any kind of sinner should be put to death for their sin, especially by their peers (the government does have the right to execute true criminals, like murderers, etc.). So, this kind of law, which denigrates people for practicing certain sorts of sin, is just plain wrong as I see it.

Yet another political point of view: The United States was founded on the principle that all people  were created equal, and have an equal right to freedom. So even if sins like homosexuality were deeply frowned upon by a majority of citizens, the people practicing such sin still have the same rights as everyone else. And although we have had some serious episodes of intolerance in the country, for the most part, this personal freedom has been honored. A good example of this is right here in Nevada. Prostitution is legal here, the only place in the US where it is legal. As fornication and adultery are identified very strongly as sin, I do not practice these activities, and discourage other people from doing them. But because this is a free country. the brothels and those that patronize them have a very cherished right to exist. So even though I very much disdain what goes on in the brothels, I am supportive of their existence, as the people involved have a right to do this activity. There is no real move on anyone's part here in Nevada to try and shut our brothels down.

Lastly, from the media side: It teaches in the Bible that the church will always be persecuted to one degree or another. This used to be a minor problem when Christianity had a much bigger influence here than it does today (sadly!). But today, there is a tendency for the media to go on the attack against the church, and against those who propourt 'traditional' values. This is sad, as those that practice Christianity have every bit as much a right to practice Christianity as do those who choose not to practice Christianity to not practice it. This will only get worse with time.

The bottom line in all of this is that the most effective ministry that a Christian can offer to other people is done in a one-on-one situation, where both parties are willing to participate in a meaningful discourse. Trying to jam any religious (or non religious) viewpoint down anyone else's throat usually is not an effective tool of 'evangelism'.

So, I really hope this law does not come to pass. It is the wrong solution to the problem, from a Biblical standpoint. If the Christians in Uganda want to see these lives changed, they need to reach out to these folks in kindness, and not abhor them because of their sin.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tìtstewan

On this topic there is really only one thing to say:

Quote from: Mark 12:3131The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Where is it on the whole world?!?

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 29, 2013, 03:30:58 PM

*nod* Just goes to show.

Even the Salvation Army is dangerously tied to Christianity.

The Salvation army IS a Christian organization. They have never tried to hide it. Look at their name. It says it all.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Zusupa Tanhì

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä, I think all the points you raised are very interesting. I do not abhor Christianity per se, or any religion. But the extremists of each group? I certainly do not appreciate the way they act and behave.

One thing I don't get is why homosexuality would be a sin. What about it is so bad? That two males or two females cannot produce children together?
Stay your blade from the flesh of the innocent.
Always be discreet.
Do not compromise the Brotherhood.
~The Assassin's Creed

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 30, 2013, 07:19:08 AM
One thing I don't get is why homosexuality would be a sin. What about it is so bad? That two males or two females cannot produce children together?
Nothing is bad.

They often says homosexuality would be unnatural. But some animals do it too. (And yes, I know they would say, we are not animals)
...just for notification.

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Zusupa Tanhì

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 30, 2013, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 30, 2013, 07:19:08 AM
One thing I don't get is why homosexuality would be a sin. What about it is so bad? That two males or two females cannot produce children together?
Nothing is bad.

They often says homosexuality would be unnatural. But some animals do it too. (And yes, I know they would say, we are not animals)
...just for notification.

Right. Okay then, that makes a little more sense.
Stay your blade from the flesh of the innocent.
Always be discreet.
Do not compromise the Brotherhood.
~The Assassin's Creed

Niri Te

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 29, 2013, 11:57:51 PM
On this topic there is really only one thing to say:

Quote from: Mark 12:3131The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Where is it on the whole world?!?

Oh, there are others, ma Tsmuk, Did you know that King David, "A man after God's heart" was a BISEXUAL??? The BIBLE NARRATIVE PROVES IT for those who are willing to read it without sunglasses on. When it comes to TRANSSEXUALS, Take a look at what the Bible has to say about Eunuchs. THEN there there is the quote "IF thy hand causes thee to SIN cut it off". It wasn't just talking about the hand, it brought up the eye, and by association ANY body part that would cause us to sin. So WHAT HAPPENS if the pre-operative body of a Transsexual causes them to sin in great measure?? What happens if AFTER the Surgery, that sin STOPS???
"JUDGE NOT THAT YE BE NOT JUDGED".
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Tìtstewan

Ma Niri Te, I didn't know about King David.
However, your text is interesting and you are right. :)



...a quote that's fits well here.
Quote from: Albert Einstein, 3 January 1954 - Source: The Guardian. 13 May 2008The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. ... For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.
That hits the nail on the head.

Religion has in today 21st century lost nothing in the policy.
But if I think well, I would not start religious discusion here, because it possible to gets quickly out of control and I do not want to hurt feelings of aysmuke sì aysmukan. :-X

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

If anyone wants to discuss this issue further in a civil manner, start a thread in the Bible forum.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Zusupa Tanhì

*ehem* Getting back on my original track, how can we (besides social media) help to change this awful practice? I think we can all agree that this is disgraceful and horrible. Any suggestions? Should we put up flyers? Have protests?
Stay your blade from the flesh of the innocent.
Always be discreet.
Do not compromise the Brotherhood.
~The Assassin's Creed

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

You might start by doing some research to see who's really supporting this imitative. Use the video as a starting point, but keep your mind open. I bet you find a bigger story just below the surface.

I still find it really hard to believe that the Church would promote a law like this. Such a practice is a direct contradiction to Scripture. But then again, if you study the history of the Church, there is a lot of violence, bloodshed and corruption to be found.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tìtstewan

This civil manner in Uganda is - I express it carefully - 'supported' by donations of church organisation.
I don't wonder that here has start a discusion about the bible...

Back to topic:
Quote from: Zusupa Tanhì on January 30, 2013, 04:12:20 PM
*ehem* Getting back on my original track, how can we (besides social media) help to change this awful practice? I think we can all agree that this is disgraceful and horrible. Any suggestions? Should we put up flyers? Have protests?
Simply here is need transparency of the way of donations. A lots of money get lost by way to this states.
Corruptions and something similar have to be limited, but it will not easy, much bureaucracy in between.

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Ma 'Itan Atxur, to answer your question: As a practising Christian, I believe the Bible is God's word, and is therefore a trustworthy moral yardstick by which to live my life (and I do not measure up in many areas!). If the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, then to me it is a sin. If you want to discuss this further, please start a thread in the 'Bible' forum.

As far as donations go, unless you have some objection to the doctrine of these organizations, most of them do what they say they do. Corruption does happen (because no one is perfect), and it must needs be brought out and exposed when it does. (BTW, I have been a member of the Salvation Army emergency response team.) I don't believe that there are many organizations here in the US that would support-- even secretly-- what is going on in Uganda. Perhaps they are not aware of what is going on there. Or, maybe it is just one or two groups pushing for such extreme measures. This is why I encouraged people to do research and find out what is really going on-- the news media tends to be anti-Christian and cannot be trusted.

One place to check out an organization is to look at their form 990 (nonprofit tax return). These by law are posted for public inspection. You can easily find out how 'efficient' they are with the donations made to them.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Toruk Makto

One man's mythology is a other man's axiomatic certainty. This is the basis of faith and each has his or her own. To me, extremism is not an expression of faith but rather a hijacking of it. Regardless of the Genesis of such things as what is happening in Uganda, moral imperative demands action. Thank you for posting on this.

On a related note, there are few places on the net where this topic could be discussed with maturity and decorum, while still being productive. I love this community. 

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
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