"Kaltxì ma <name>" versus "Kaltxì, tsmukan"

[HawkPidgeon]

So, when you say hello to someone and address them directly, generally you'd place "ma" after your greeting. But from what I've seen, there is no "ma" after the greeting if you are addressing someone as tsmukan or tsmuke.

Is "ma" only for addressing someone directly and using the person's name?

[wm.annis]

s "ma" only for addressing someone directly and using the person's name?

We don't know yet.  The next time I see the film, I will be paying close attention to dialog in some parts.

Lots of languages use a special word or special grammar when you're using someone's name or title to address them directly.  Grammarians call this the "vocative."  In Greek and Latin, many nouns have a vocative case.  When you speak directly to someone named "Marcus" you use the form "Marce."  In Arabic (well, classical Arabic, at least), you use the word yaa in front of the name.

In every language I know of that has a vocative case or word, it can be used not only with names but other relationships.  Latin "amicus" ('friend') is "o amice."  If you ever listen to Arab pop music you will hear "yaa Habiibi" 'my beloved.'  So, right now, I'm very inclined to suppose that it should be kaltxì, ma tsmukan.

[HawkPidgeon]

Yeah... I'm thinking that for now I'll be using "ma" whenever I address someone directly, regardless of whether or not I'm using the person's name in the phrase.

Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmuktu.

[Fyawìntxu]

Kaltxì ma smuktu!

From my understanding, any time you talk directly to somebody (1 or more people), you have to use ma-.

Example:
Kaltxì ma sempul (Hello father)
Kaltxì ma Jake (Hello Jake)
Kaltxì ma tsmukan (Hello brother)
Kaltxì ma smukan (Hello brothers)

Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Kìyevame

Fyawintxu

[neosis666]

Kaltxì ma smuktu!

From my understanding, any time you talk directly to somebody (1 or more people), you have to use ma-.

Example:
Kaltxì ma sempul (Hello father)
Kaltxì ma Jake (Hello Jake)
Kaltxì ma tsmukan (Hello brother)
Kaltxì ma smukan (Hello brothers)

Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Kìyevame

Fyawintxu

I wouldnt think you use the ma on smukan however the others are right as far as we know.

[Doolio]

if the vocative is used like in the existing languages that have it, you would use it whenever you are addressing anything directly...be it friend, enemy, animal, plant, deity, neighbour, abstract term etc...

so, IF that is the case, all your examples are correct.

[txep-a ska'ayu]

I found it today, but you can hear Grace Augustine use Kaltxì in the movie.  When she is first let back into the village and is greeting the children, she says "Kaltxì ma 'evi". 

Seems again like Ma is used for everything.

[Fya'o Tskoyä]

I found it today, but you can hear Grace Augustine use Kaltxì in the movie.  When she is first let back into the village and is greeting the children, she says "Kaltxì ma 'evi". 

Seems again like Ma is used for everything.

"ma" is only used when addressing someone by name. it is not a general term or plural

You would say "Ma Jake!" not something like "Ma Tsmukan" or "Ma aysmukan"

[Taronyu]

I found it today, but you can hear Grace Augustine use Kaltxì in the movie.  When she is first let back into the village and is greeting the children, she says "Kaltxì ma 'evi". 

Seems again like Ma is used for everything.

"ma" is only used when addressing someone by name. it is not a general term or plural

You would say "Ma Jake!" not something like "Ma Tsmukan" or "Ma aysmukan"

This isn't true, as the quote you quoted stated. That is a clear case of ma + general term.

There are others. The first scene, when Neytiri ends the life of the viperwolf, she says very clearly ma smukan.

[wm.annis]

You would say "Ma Jake!" not something like "Ma Tsmukan" or "Ma aysmukan"

Except that you do.  You hear those very phrases in the movies.  The particle ma is called "vocative" marker (by Frommer in one interview).  Vocatives can be used both for people's names as well as their relationship to you.  So both, ma Jake and ma sempul are fine, and used in the film.

[Na'viyä Tsamsiyu]

What about if its a term given to a group, like Tawtute or someones title, like Tsahìk. Or say if you didnt know the name of someone and you said: Kaltxì ma (friend, if we had a word for it)

Would these still apply the "ma"?

I think so but tell me why(not).

[Fya'o Tskoyä]

You would say "Ma Jake!" not something like "Ma Tsmukan" or "Ma aysmukan"

Except that you do.  You hear those very phrases in the movies.  The particle ma is called "vocative" marker (by Frommer in one interview).  Vocatives can be used both for people's names as well as their relationship to you.  So both, ma Jake and ma sempul are fine, and used in the film.

well since you said relationship, and with the na'vi everything is connected , so it can be used for pretty much anything, i guess it just isnt thrown around lightly in the movie?

[Doolio]

the vocative is used when directly addressing someone or something, it has nothing to do with relation. you are confused because it sounds like 'my' so you all are constantly trying to put it in some context of relation or name or title...
it is purely grammatical form, if you are addressing a tree, any tree, unimportant tree - you will still use vocative. if you are addressing a bunch of ants, you will put them in vocative form.

read this topic (the whole topic, not just the guessing at the beggining)
http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=221.0

it should really be put in the faq or something, a lot of people are confused with vocative (probably english speakers) and there are dozens of topics like this everyday:)

it is true that we do not know all about the na'vi vocative, but if it is used the same as in the existing languages that have it, then it is used always when addressing something.

[Fyawìntxu]

Again, with little precisions...

Kaltxì ma smuktu!

From my understanding, any time you talk directly to somebody (1 or more people), you have to use ma-.

Example:
Kaltxì ma sempul (Hello father)      
ma sempul-> Neytiri to her father while she's looking for him after the human destroy the House-Tree.
Kaltxì ma Jake (Hello Jake)            
ma Jake-> Neytiri to Jake while he's sleeping and while humans destroy the forest with the buldozers.
Kaltxì ma tsmukan (Hello brother)
ma tsmukan->Jake to the Yerik while preying and killing him.
Kaltxì ma smukan (Hello brothers)
ma smukan, ma smuké->Tsu'tey to his people, translating Jake's words

Kìyevame

Fyawintxu

    Not guessing anymore, or at least a lot less... here are joined some records for each case I mentionned.

    Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame ma smuktu.

Fyawintxu

Please do not link to pirated material! - Ngaya Takukyu

[Doolio]

also, the first scene with tsu'tei, when neytiri says something like "what are you doing tsu'tei?!", she clearly says "ma tsu'tei"

[Na'viyä Tsamsiyu]

Agreed

[Fya'o Tskoyä]

Again, with little precisions...

Kaltxì ma smuktu!

From my understanding, any time you talk directly to somebody (1 or more people), you have to use ma-.

Example:
Kaltxì ma sempul (Hello father)      
ma sempul-> Neytiri to her father while she's looking for him after the human destroy the House-Tree.
Kaltxì ma Jake (Hello Jake)            
ma Jake-> Neytiri to Jake while he's sleeping and while humans destroy the forest with the buldozers.
Kaltxì ma tsmukan (Hello brother)
ma tsmukan->Jake to the Yerik while preying and killing him.
Kaltxì ma smukan (Hello brothers)
ma smukan, ma smuké->Tsu'tey to his people, translating Jake's words

Kìyevame

Fyawintxu

    Not guessing anymore, or at least a lot less... here are joined some records for each case I mentionned.

    Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame ma smuktu.

Fyawintxu

Please do not link to pirated material! - Ngaya Takukyu

^ this

[roger]

We don't have to use "ma". Neytiri doesn't use it when addressing a horse or her banshee. I think there were some other exceptions. I'm only guessing, but it may be a matter of calling someone's attention: when you first greet or address s.o., when you're being formal or polite, or when you're calling for someone lost in the woods, you use "ma", but when you're stroking your steed's forehead and whispering it its ear, you don't need to use "ma" every time you mention its name.

[Doolio]

that also has been discussed many times...and it is possible that neytiri simply doesn't address her ikran or horse directly, but she uses a figure of speech (good doggie - you are in fact talking to a dog, but not grammatically).

it could go both ways really (as we need frommer before we can make any assumption canonical), but IF the vocative case in na'vi is used as it is used in existing languages, then it should go whenever you are addressing anything directly, as the vocative is supposed to be purely grammatical and not contextual. we do have to wait for official clarification, though.

[Is.]

What I'm curious about is whether or not one can use the "ma" when speaking to someone one dislike or hate. Like: I'll kill you, idiot! Would it be feasable to say: Ngati tspìyang, ma skxawng!

If not, then the vocative particle possibly also contains a certain honorific, or atleast friendly, element?