Belo Monte Dam in Brazil - WITH UPDATES

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

Displacing entire villages for the economic benefit of a few?  Check.

There's a difference between flooding a bunch of villages in the Amazon and using helicopters and bombs.

Also, at least there are third-party environmental scientists studying this. There aren't really any on Pandora (ignoring Grace, since she is not third-party). At least if there are lots of scientific studies on the impact and everybody says okay in Avatar's universe, the movie is passing completely the wrong message.

If you must insist on differentiating the methods, then do as you wish. My point is that there are people displaced against their will in both scenarios. Also, we don't really know what exactly has been studied on Pandora, since that was not revealed in the film. I decline to make any sort of definitive statements in that regard.

ta Markì

Mllte ngahu, ma Markì. Let's not jump to conclusions here. And i must admit; It kinda feels like only a handful of people will benefit from this project. I mean, think about it; A very large number of people in Brazil don't even have access to electricity! I don't think it will make much of a difference to them, at least not in a positive way. Dilma and her staff talk a lot about producing lots of clean energy, but do they even mention who will receive this electricity and how  ? I am indeed suspicious.

[Irtaviš Ačankif]

A very large number of people in Brazil don't even have access to electricity!

Hmm, I didn't know about it. Sounds implausible though. Brazil is generally considered more developed than China and back in China people were much poorer yet the vast majority does have electricity.

[Redpaintednavi]

Pandora: unobtanium
Brazil: electricity

If you compare not only Belo Monte and  the Xingu but put it in a wider Amazonian perspective there are also:
oil, gold, minerals, timber, land for agriculture and other natural resources

Pandora: Eywa exists
Brazil: (you may disagree) Eywa does not

If no Eywa there are still an ecologically balanced nature with pristine forests and enormous biodiversity.

Pandora: Big paramilitary force
Brazil: Big corporate executives and a bunch of workers

In some parts of the Amazon there have also been government troops, paramilitaries and corporate hired gunmen. There have been gunfire, bombs and even napalm.

Pandora: Pristine planet
Brazil: Pretty messed up already

Still there are pristine parts of the amazon that ought to be protected.

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

A very large number of people in Brazil don't even have access to electricity!

Hmm, I didn't know about it. Sounds implausible though. Brazil is generally considered more developed than China and back in China people were much poorer yet the vast majority does have electricity.

What about all those countless people living in the cities' favelas without access to electricity  ?

BTW: You make good points there, ma Redpaintednavi  .

[Raiden]

http://news.mongabay.com/2013/0314-kayapo-reject-eletrobras.html

I guess they weren't interested in blue jeans and beer.

[Tsmuktengan]

Still the same issue. You can't deal woth people who live in a totally different way just by throwing money (which can be considered as buying people). These people have a way of live deeply linked to their environment. You can't displace people like this.

It is already incredibly difficult for usual people like us to travel abroad without difficulty, and if staying for a long time outside, it is incredibly difficult not to feel bad about not feeling at home or missing your previously known environment. Just imagine for people who are rooted to a very specific territory... how could they move without a single assistance for finding a proper new territory with ressources, and assistance on many aspects?

Millions cannot repair the psychological prejudice as well.

However, considering the amazon rainforest and it's Brazilian part, there are mixed news. You might want to read this good article from the same site : http://news.mongabay.com/2012/1231-year-in-rainforests-2012.html

Not everything is going badly, thankfully, and there are very positive tones.

[Raiden]

The Amazon is more than just forest.

The fish biodiversity in the waterways is tremendous, and the "Big Bend" portion of the Xingu is very important for a number of fish species, including some of the most strikingly colored catfish in the world.

There are so many of these fish that most of them don't have formal species names yet, and some have never even been keyed out to a genus; in fact, there are so many of these "unknown" fish in the family Loricariidae (armored catfish), that many of them are classified with the letter L (for Loricariid) and a number.

These temporary classification numbers go well above 100; I know that there's one called "L-125".

These fish use the Big Bend as spawning grounds, and need water with a relatively high level of dissolved oxygen. The dam would destroy this.

My point is that the location of the dam is a massive biodiversity hotspot, and losing it would actually deal a terrible blow to the river, and because of seasonal flood cycles in the Amazon, impacting the forest will harm  the river and impacting the river will probably harm the forest.

Finally, Brazil has been pushing out as much positive press about their forestry programs as possible lately, to try and cover up what's going on with the dam. There was another article on Mongabay recently about a paper that came out which found that the health of the waterways in the Amazon was declining.

http://news.mongabay.com/2013/0208-amazon-river-threats.html

I'm not trying to crush your efforts with pessimism, but there isn't really a bright side to what Brazil is doing. They've done some small things recently to curb deforestation, but it's not really enough. They would have to take huge strides very quickly in order to halt the damage.

The problem is that the president doesn't really care, she's just trying to cover her own ass.

I hate her, so, so much.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Displacing entire villages for public works projects, especially in third world countries (which Brazil is not) is nothing new. It is going on right now in India to protect lion and tiger habitat. the problem there is population density is already so high that its hard to relocate people. People also don't like being relocated for the reasons that have been discussed earlier in this thread. Some people who have always lived in what today is the Gir Forest Sanctuary, have continued to live there, coexisting more or less peacefully with the Asiatic lion. In general though, I have serious issues with relocating people against their will, even if it is to save lions and tigers.

Although electricity can be transported great distances, the losses in doing so increase with distance, and the engineering problems involved in minimizing those losses increase dramatically. I would guess that the load for the Belo Monte Dam is not that terribly far from where it is being built. Brazil has always wanted to move a good deal of their economic infrastructure to the interior of the country (a bad move, IMHO), and this may be just another step.

Although cheap, low pollution energy is a compelling reason to build a large dam, dams can be extremely destructive to the environment around them. They denude large areas of land of things that grow, and this is a significant problem in the Amazon basin. Much of the oxygen in the air we breathe is created in the Amazon rainforests, and destroying this rainforest has serious negative implications for everyone on earth. Although I generally support responsible economic development, this is one place in the world where it should be significantly limited. One thing that does not help the Amazon situation compared to other places with similar warm climates is a relative lack of megafauna, like lions and tigers (although they have jaguars). The existence of a widely recognized, culturally significant flagship animal species tends to result in efforts to conserve that species and its ecosystem. Unfortunately, the jaguar isn't quite up there with lions and tigers.

The point about money for the displace people is noteworthy. A few years back, the Feline Conservation Federation was funding a project to protect Ocelot/Margay/Jaguar habitat in Ecuador. This area is surrounded by areas where minimg or forestry are practiced, and this land was a desirable target, especially for forest products. The FCF folks eventually determined that a border patrol was needed to prevent unauthorized logging. They wanted to pay the locals to do this, but there was an interesting problem: The locals don't really use money. The logging folks wanted to put in roads, etc. for them in return for some logging, but the locals had no use for roads, or anything that was associated with them (like electricity). I forget how this all ended up working, but in the end, the FCF is no longer involved to any great degree with that project. The important message though, is that not all people have the same values we do, and failure to respect the value differences often ends up in disaster.

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

http://news.mongabay.com/2013/0314-kayapo-reject-eletrobras.html

I guess they weren't interested in blue jeans and beer.

Wow, it really does start to sound like Avatar  !

The important message though, is that not all people have the same values we do, and failure to respect the value differences often ends up in disaster.

Couldn't have said it better myself, ma tsmukan  .

[Toruk Makto]

http://amazonwatch.org/news/2013/0319-water-rising


Notes from the Amazon Watch Brazil field team, currently in Altamira.
Follow their journey directly here.


Water Rising...

March 19, 2013 | Maíra Irigaray | Source: Stop Belo Monte

While Amazon Watch team is on the ground in Brazil heading out to another occupation in efforts to stop the Belo Monte Dam, heavy rains continue to fall in the Xingu region. The water started rising earlier this week and now Altamira is totally flooded; the river is high, coming up through floorboards of raised houses. Sudao neighborhood was greatly impacted and firemen were helping people out of their home... We worry what is to come with increased flooding caused by the dam. Where will people go?

[Tìtstewan]

Keftxo nì'aw.

[Tsmuktengan]

Keftxo nì'aw.

Srane...

[Raiden]

Step 1: Steal construction machinery

Step 2: Dig a hole in the retaining dam

Step 3: Trolololol

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

Irayo for the new article, ma Toruk Makto  . It is indeed disturbing to think of what might happen to the flooding when the dam is put into the equation  .

Step 1: Steal construction machinery

Step 2: Dig a hole in the retaining dam

Step 3: Trolololol

Lol, ma Raiden  !

[Raiden]

http://news.mongabay.com/2013/0408-gen-brazil-dams-military.html

The plot thickens.

Somewhat unrelated, but this dam crap is starting to parallel Avatar more and more...

[Toruk Makto]

It's actually not unrelated at all. It's part of a broad plan by the Brazilian government to pretty much delete a lot of the Amazon rainforest in the interest of industry. Good find, and thanks for posting that.

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

Irayo for the article, ma Raiden  ! Reading this brings me to the horrible realization that the deadline set by Valdenir Munduruku was passed two days ago, and that the armed conflict may have already begun  !

[Tsanten Eywa 'eveng]

Found this photo. It is where the Kayapo tribe is. It seems like the brazilian military have moved in there, to stop they who are protesting about the Belo Monte Dam.

This is very sad
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4949836910187&set=o.181577995222097&type=1&theater

[Tìtstewan]

Oh hell NO!
This is very very sad only.

Pelun?

[Tsanten Eywa 'eveng]

Oh hell NO!
This is very very sad only.

Pelun?

Because of the gouvernment wants to build up this damn dam, and make that all the indigenous people in the area, need to leave their lands, because the area will be flooded because of that dam