Author Topic: Military stuff for the Curious  (Read 4890 times)

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Offline Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2010, 01:45:08 pm »
Dang, I hope sniper school is open to officers. That or they better let me take an M-14 with an ACOG out of the armory, I have a built in hate for that plastic pea-shooter the Army calls the M16/M4 family.
My official stance is that "the M-16 family is not bad" and leave it at that. It is adequate. It is light and easy to carry, which is nice on a long march, but I'd like it to magically transform into something more like an L1A1 or something else with at least a "7.XX" in the description.  ;)

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What exactly is Pathfinder training. I've heard of it, but all I've heard of it is that they were the first guys dropped in on D-Day to set up beacons.
Pathfinders are the guys that go in first to set up drop zones. For paradrops, heliborne assault, and LAPES if needed. They do the beacons and signal the all-clear, they make sur ethe area is swept of debris so it doesn't get sucked into engines/rotors, etc. It's a support-of-airborne & air-assault type thing.

I wouldn't have a problem with the M16 family if not for the following things:
1. You have to put the face back in the lock lugs in a certain way, or it blows up
2. You can't sneeze down the barrel, or it will blow up.
3. Any foreign objects in the action will gum up the weapon.
4. The 5.56x45mm round is under-powered.
5. The guy that designed the rifle was named Stoner.
6. The bayonet has all the intimidation factor of a dull butter knife.
7. Its primarily made of plastic.

All things considered, I'd just hang it over the mantle and be done with it.....oh, wait, you can't hang it over the mantle. THE PLASTIC melts when its that close to FIRE!!!!......

After all that, my opinion can be condensed to a line from Full Metal Jacket:
       "I don't need no teenage queen, I just need my M14"
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2010, 02:16:31 pm »
I wouldn't have a problem with the M16 family if not for the following things:
1. You have to put the face back in the lock lugs in a certain way, or it blows up
Agreed.

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2. You can't sneeze down the barrel, or it will blow up.
3. Any foreign objects in the action will gum up the weapon.
It's not as bad as it used to be, but yes, it is still too delicate, for my tastes, as a long-term field weapon. Something more rugged and simpler would be nice. A lot of the problem to me, is the gas-return system that fouls the chamber, and chamber is an absolute pain to clean.

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4. The 5.56x45mm round is under-powered.
Definitely. I'd prefer something in a 7.XX-something but the idea of a universal service cartridge of 6.8 mm is also appealing. There's a small movement to look into this, but the damn 5.56 mafia has a stranglehold on procurements and a whole manufacturing industry is set up around it. So I won't hold my breath. In a way, I am kinda hoping that a stronger Europe, China and Russia goes for something more robust, and the US arms companies will feel compelled to match it to "keep up". Without outside political pressure, no change will be made.

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5. The guy that designed the rifle was named Stoner.
Actually, don't be dissin' the E-dawg. Eugene Stoner designed some kick-ass weapons in his day. His original design for what became the M-16 family was, IIRC, called the AR-10 and was a 7.62 weapon with a more robust build, it was sort of like a smaller version of the then-popular L1A1 which was known at the time as "the right arm of the free world". The M-16 was originally supposed to be a rifle for Air Force base base security, not a frontline weapon. But it was light and easier to carry, and the notion that smaller, lighter bullets would penetrate faster was gaining ground in military thinking. So they convinced Procurements to take the M-16 family.  

In a brilliant move (that's sarcasm, BTW  ;)), to save money they didn't change the already-existing powder used for M14 cartridges. It was a coarser grain that burned more slowly and unevenly, compared to the finely-ground powders needed to make the M-16 work. The powder worked fine enough for the robust M14, but was unsuitable for the M16.  During testing, they spared no expense with the experimental XM-177 and used more finely-ground powder, but once full production went into effect it was too expensive to replace the M14 powder. So they just poured it into the 5.56 cartridges and called it good. So in Vietnam, you had excessive fouling and inconsistent bullet performance. Hence, if you were lucky, you'd get one shot off and kill a bad guy, take his AK and soldier on.  :-\

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6. The bayonet has all the intimidation factor of a dull butter knife.
It's mostly there for it's wire-cutter properties, and to give a feeling of "hooah" to the guys. Actually, most bayonets these days are like that. I kept a Cold Steel Recon Tanto for actual cutting needs.

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7. Its primarily made of plastic.
Hence the name, "Mattel-16", since I am told (dunno if it's true) that a lot of the plastic parts are made by a subsidiary of Mattel toy company. Take that for what it's worth. But to save weight, more and more weapons around the world these days are switching to plastic furniture and composites. Seen FN's lineup lately? Even the Kalashnikov series has gone plastic. Glock has also contributed to that mindset, back in the 1980's, with their pistols. I like Glocks, though, so I won't complain about them. Especially compared to the Beretta 92.

The days of the solid wood stock weapons are gone. I have a nice KAR-98 Mauser, though, and that thing's a damn club, I tell you what. I need to take that out and pop a few...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 03:50:22 pm by Coyote »
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Offline Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2010, 04:39:21 pm »
^LOL, my rifles are from the other side of the Eastern Front, Coyote, Mosin-Nagants. A 91/30 and an M38. Nice rifles, and they make you see why they call the 7.62x54R "the original short magnum".

Nice little fireball on firing, so its a rifle and a flamethrower. LOL.

Like I said, give me an M14 and I'll get the job done. LOL
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Offline Lehrrap Uniltìranyu

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2010, 04:46:26 pm »
The M-16A4 is a pretty good weapon, in my opinion.

Sure, the caliber isn't super on the 'stopping power' levels.

Ok, it's made of plastic, fine.

Yes, it's got some jamming problem and isn't as robust as say, a AK-47.

But there is one thing that it can do better then just about any other weapon: Accurecy on Full-Automatic.

The low-caliber reduces kickback a lot, and when held tightly and properly, and be fired on full auto, and I mean 'dont-let-the-trigger-go-untill-the-clip-is-empty' full automatic, standing upright, aiming down the sights or hipfiring.

I'ed like to see you do THAT with a AK-47 or most other conventional assault rifles.
-----
EDIT: Also, the Glock line of pistols, while also made of plastic, are known for being robust and BADASS.

Seeings as it also makes up most of my last name (Glocker), you can understand how I feel about people saying trash things about Plastic guns.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 04:49:43 pm by Lehrrap Uniltìranyu »



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Offline Nume fpi sänume

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2010, 06:52:10 pm »
But there is one thing that it can do better then just about any other weapon: Accurecy on Full-Automatic.

The low-caliber reduces kickback a lot, and when held tightly and properly, and be fired on full auto, and I mean 'dont-let-the-trigger-go-untill-the-clip-is-empty' full automatic, standing upright, aiming down the sights or hipfiring.

I'ed like to see you do THAT with a AK-47 or most other conventional assault rifles.

You waste your rounds on full auto, I'll still probably do more damage with a single round from an AK :P

Offline Lehrrap Uniltìranyu

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2010, 07:02:53 pm »
But there is one thing that it can do better then just about any other weapon: Accurecy on Full-Automatic.

The low-caliber reduces kickback a lot, and when held tightly and properly, and be fired on full auto, and I mean 'dont-let-the-trigger-go-untill-the-clip-is-empty' full automatic, standing upright, aiming down the sights or hipfiring.

I'ed like to see you do THAT with a AK-47 or most other conventional assault rifles.

You waste your rounds on full auto, I'll still probably do more damage with a single round from an AK :P
You have a valid point, though I'll admit I'm more in the shooting at full-auto for fun ;)
And still, the AK is wildly innacuret, even in single fire or burst fire.



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Offline Ikranä mokri

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2010, 01:58:24 am »
so what do you guys think of the british standard SA-80??

Iv heard that it kicks like a mule and has the grouping of quite a large sheep





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Offline Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2010, 02:02:14 pm »
It's not nearly as inaccurate as Hollywood would have you believe. Most AK's are capable of 1.75 inch groups at three hundred yards. The reason people think that it is inaccurate is that all the bad guys in movies use it and spray bullets everywhere. For example, take Rambo IV, the Burmese soldiers, and the mercs on Rambo's side both use AK-47's with amazing accuracy. The Burmese, as you can hear from the movie audio, consistently score hits on the gunner shield in front of Stallone's character, at a distance that I would estimate to be about 250 yards.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2010, 02:29:45 pm »
so what do you guys think of the british standard SA-80??

Iv heard that it kicks like a mule and has the grouping of quite a large sheep

It's a standard NATO-caliber 5.56 so I doubt it kicks any more than an M-16. It's about the same weight, too, I believe. And the grouping would be more the fault of the firer-- inaccurate technique and lack of sighting-in-- more so than an inherent design flaw with the weapon.

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 02:32:32 pm by Coyote »
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!


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Offline Coyote

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2010, 02:56:03 pm »
As for full auto, AKs, and accuracy, a few things to bear in mind--

An "assault rifle" by definition is a rifle used in an assault-- which sounds kinda like a head-smacker at first, but bear in mind that an "assault" is a particular term used for a particular tactical situation. It is different from, say, a "defense", or trench warfare, obviously.

To qualify as an "assault rifle" a rifle has to fit certain criteria: first, it is a small, light caliber because a small, light caliber allows you to carry a lot of them, both in size/volume and weight. Secondly, it is capable of firing full-auto fire, and doing so with some reasonable degree of accuracy & controllability. So in that respect, Lehrrap is correct. The smaller caliber bullet makes recoil less of a problem, and it is easier to retain control on full-auto.

Now, what do we use full-auto for? To hose down the enemy? No. It is to spray so many bullets in the enemy's direction, that he takes cover and doesn't get up. It's to pin him in a position while the riflemen maneuver on him and pick him off with well-placed shots.

With assault rifles, when you are in an assault on a fixed position, you want to keep your enemy pinned down. After all, your enemy is in a fortified position. If he has the chance to get up and fire from his well-prepared defenses, he will perforate the bejeezus out of you, and your assault will fail. So part of the "assault" is a close-in confrontation with a prepared enemy, and you need to keep putting a lot of rounds towards his face to keep him from fighting back effectively. (This is also why you need, at minimum, a 3-to-1 advantage when conducting an assault, so there's always a volume of fire on him from somewhere even if some of your troops need to reload).

So, for an "assault rifle", you want a whole lot of small, fast bullets. The M-16 family, and the Russian AK-74 family (5.45 mm) fits this bill very well.

Here's the problem:

An assault rifle is a bullet hose, almost by definition. But, soldiers are trained to engage targets and fire with a "one-shot/one-kill" standard. In other words, they are trained to treat their assault rifles like... battle rifles.

Battle rifles?

A battle rifle is a larger, heavier rifle, typically firing a cartridge in the 7.XX category. Like the rifle, this cartridge is larger, heavier, had a lot of kinetic energy and knockdown power, and is not easily deflected like a smaller bullet might be. Because the bullets are bigger and heavier, you carry less of them, but, you're expected to make each one count, and they reach out to much longer ranges. Take a look at the FN-FAL (or L1A1 as it is also known) and you will see the ultimate battle rifle: a 7.62x51 rifle with a long-ass barrel, meant to dominate a battle field with irresistable force at great distance. It would also suck balls in an assault, because you can't control that bucking bronco on full-auto, kicking out 7.62, and trying to swing that long-ass barrel around in time to engage close targets.

This is why I think both the Russians and the Americans, for a long time, were equally screwed up: for years, the Russians used the AK-47, a 7.62x39 weapon. It was a battle rifle cartridge, but they trained to use it in spray-and-burst mode... like an assault rifle.

Meanwhile, the Americans had an assault rifle, the M-16, but trained their troops to use it as one-shot/one-kill, like a battle rifle. So both countries were arming and training with weapons that were being used improperly, IMO. They should have either traded weapons or traded doctrine!  ;)

Anyhow, now the Russians have the AK-74, and they have decided to follow our mistake; and we continue to treat the M-16 like a battle rifle.

Otherwise, AK-series are good rifles. But like all tools, they need to be used properly for maximum effectiveness.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 03:02:55 pm by Coyote »
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!


VIDEO LOG DAY 8:
Attempted to pee on Viperwolf to test reaction. Please see attached medical file.
WARNING: Attached medical file exceeds gigabyte limit. System failure.

Offline ShadowMainZERO

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2010, 05:05:39 pm »
Marines are VERY possesive of their ranks and of the fact that they are marines. 13 weeks in hell, and the longest training time of all of our nations armys, the Marines consider (rightly so) that they are the best of the best of the best. (Meaning, you don't f*** with a marine, or a marine will f*** you up.)

Your marines have obviusly never met a SEAL.


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Offline Niwantaw

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2010, 05:09:58 pm »
so what do you guys think of the british standard SA-80??

Iv heard that it kicks like a mule and has the grouping of quite a large sheep

It's a standard NATO-caliber 5.56 so I doubt it kicks any more than an M-16. It's about the same weight, too, I believe. And the grouping would be more the fault of the firer-- inaccurate technique and lack of sighting-in-- more so than an inherent design flaw with the weapon.

 

The SA-80 it a lot lighter and smaller than the M16 i think (smaller defiantly not entirely sure on weight)
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Offline Emtokay

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2010, 12:42:56 am »
Well the F88 Aus. Steyr shoots the same NATO rounds, has hardly any kick, pretty accurate and only weighs about 4.2kg loaded
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Offline Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2010, 11:54:23 am »
Personally, give me an M-14 with a 4-12x scope for long range and a holosight mounted around the tube for getting down and dirty, and i'll go all day.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 02:36:35 pm by Tukruyä Tsamsiyu »
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Offline Emtokay

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2010, 08:53:13 am »
M98B for me,
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Offline Emtokay

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Re: Military stuff for the Curious
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2010, 06:01:03 am »
Marines are VERY possesive of their ranks and of the fact that they are marines. 13 weeks in hell, and the longest training time of all of our nations armys, the Marines consider (rightly so) that they are the best of the best of the best. (Meaning, you don't f*** with a marine, or a marine will f*** you up.)

Your marines have obviusly never met a SEAL.

SEAL's and British SAS always loose in Talisman Sabre, Australian SAS are the elite
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