Causative cases for different verb forms

Started by N'wah, June 02, 2010, 12:41:51 PM

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kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on June 02, 2010, 05:36:01 PM
Quote from: kemeoauniaea on June 02, 2010, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on June 02, 2010, 05:07:17 PM
That works until you have a verb which can be either transitive or intransitive, and may or may not take the dative.

Which is what ambitransitivity means. The verb can only be one in a given sentence, there's no way a verb phrase could contain a verb that is both transitive and intransitive at the same time (unless we want to get invent some form of quantum linguistics but somehow I doubt that would work very well), the verb would be ambitransitive and, in a given context, one or the other.
That's more than just ambitransitive though.  Ambitransitivity says nothing about indirect objects.  But following your rules, there are cases where you can't TELL if the direct object would have been the subject or object of the regular form.

However here's a third possibility nobody has considered...

Taron - Transitive, you hunt something.  Oel yerikit taron
But without something to hunt given it's used intransitive.  Oe taron.

Teykaron - DItransitive, you cause someone to hunt something.  Oel ngaru yerikit teykaron
So like above, without something to hunt given... intransitive?  Oe ngaru teykaron

This is definitely something we need some input on.  But I'm pretty sure that "Oel ngati teykaron" is wrong.  There's no reason that couldn't be assuming the dative from context, in which case it's I cause (something contextual) to hunt you.

Oh yes, you'd certainly have a lot more you need to interpret from context but I think that it wouldn't be sufficiently difficult to do for it not to be a plausible way the language could work.

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on June 02, 2010, 05:58:05 PM
I didn't mean wrong as in ill formed, I meant wrong as not meaning the intended meaning of "I cause you to hunt".

As I say above, I think it could be worked out from context which you mean, were na'vi to work in the way I'm suggesting.

If there's a history of enmity between us and assassination were a reasinable step then oel ngati teykaron would clearly mean I was setting someone to hunt you.

If on the other hand I'm talking about a son who is the disgrace of the clan because he refuses to hunt, then oel poti teykasyaron would, contextually mean that I was determined that he will hunt. In English you can say that easily with a different subject for the modal verb "to be determined" and the verb following it, because in na'vi determined verbs are done with an inflection, you cannot do this so, in my mind, it would be plausible for you to be able to do something like this.

Quote from: tsrräfkxätu on June 02, 2010, 05:50:04 PM
Quote from: kemeoauniaea on June 02, 2010, 05:20:50 PM
So, whether oe taron counts as a transitive for the purposes of your causative algorithm, or whether it counts as an intransitive. It is sadly a grey area.

In that case, my intuition is that whenever an intransitive (or ambi-intransitive) verb is used in a causative construct it retains its INTR property.

Oe taron. —› Oe teykaron por/pofa.
Oel taron yerikit. —› Oel teykaron yerikit por/pofa.


The dative causee does not in itself warrant the use of an ERG Subj (nor does the ADPP), and when there's no DirObj there's no ACC or ERG.


edit: And apparently I share this intuition with you, ma omängum. :D

I can see that working.






I'm not saying that any of my assumptions are correct, just that they are a plausible way for the language to work even if it does make it harder.
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roger

Quote from: kemeoauniaea on June 02, 2010, 01:02:16 PM
Quote from: roger on June 02, 2010, 12:54:09 PM
I don't think that's how it works. If the verb is used intransitively, then there should be no accusative. The person you make hunt would still be in the dative. "Oel teykaron pot" would mean "I make (someone) hunt it".

No, read Frommer's email telling us about <eyk> again. If the verb is intransitive, the causee takes the accusative, if the verb is transitive, the causee take the dative.

I must be looking at another email. Could you link to or quote from it?

kewnya txamew'itan

Sorry, I thought it was an email we'd quoted but no, it was a thread.

From the first few posts you can't easily tell, but we originally only knew how it behaved with intransitive verbs (you can just about work that out from annis' post) with something like oel tsat sngeykä'ì meaning I made it begin instead of the dative being used.
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roger

Thanks, I had missed that. Did Eri post the original emails anywhere?

There's a question, though, of whether an antipassive (a transitive verb lacking an object) would behave the same as an inherently intransitive verb. The problem would be in confusing the causee of the antipassive with the object of the transitive.

kewnya txamew'itan

I can't find them if eri did post them.

As I say, I think it could be interpreted from context.

That said, I may have been basing my argument on this being ambitransitivity not antipassivity so I might need to rethink my position.
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