Author Topic: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)  (Read 1627 times)

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Swoka Swizaw

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"Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« on: December 28, 2011, 12:14:10 pm »
The title is pretty much it...

I've wanted to ask about this for a while. "Lu + (dative)" creates the possession of something, we know this. But how does one create the sentence above? Is "double dative" possible, or is there a form I am not aware of, yet?

Offline wm.annis

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 12:24:08 pm »
From the movie,

  Na'vi: Ma Eytukan, lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
  English: Eytukan, I have something to say, [to everyone].

Literally, "I have words for everyone."
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Swoka Swizaw

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 03:12:38 pm »
From the movie,

  Na'vi: Ma Eytukan, lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
  English: Eytukan, I have something to say, [to everyone].

Literally, "I have words for everyone."

Alright, so double dative...kicktxìm!

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 04:14:06 pm »
Fascinating. Iirc it WAS Jake who said that... ::)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 04:26:43 pm »
Fascinating. Iirc it WAS Jake who said that... ::)
Yes - point for you, applause for you :)
So title of the thread can be translated as:  Srake lu ngaru 'uo oeru? (?)
Personally I'd use Srake lu ngaru 'uo oefpi? What is better and why?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 04:30:36 pm »
Srake lu ngaru 'uo (a?) oefpi vs. Srake lu ngaru 'uo oeru is gonna be quite the battle.

GREAT question, OP. I can't believe this question hasn't been asked before (that I am aware of)

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 04:20:41 am »
Srake lu ngaru 'uo (a?) oefpi vs. Srake lu ngaru 'uo oeru is gonna be quite the battle.

Not to mention the dative-topical construction: Srake oeri lu ngaru 'uo?

But how would that explain this line: Pori lu awngaru tìkin a nume nì'ul.

Anyway, I have a feeling the only time the double dative will ever occur correctly is if one of the datives is paired with a lu.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 11:06:39 am »
What about:

Oe fyawìntxu Neytiriru ngaru. / I guide Neytiri to/for you.

Is that a fair double dative?
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 11:07:55 am »
ne nga? to(ward) you?


edit: dative -ru is often confused with adp. ne simply because in English oftenwe use the word "to" in both cases.

i have a strong feeling it would be ne here and not double dative

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:09:00 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 12:13:56 pm »
ne nga? to(ward) you?

I'm not saying ne is anything other than better, I just want to know if the double dative is meaningful in any such situations.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2012, 12:14:56 pm »
not in that sentence imo

edit: though you do bring up a good sentence and it's still been making me think.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 01:19:39 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 03:31:37 pm »
Technically, there can't be more than one constituent marked as dative, in any particular sentence.
I have seen only two situations that looks like two datives used simultaneously.

1) The well known "lu oeru aylì’u frapor" construction is possible only by neutralizing one of datives with "lu" - to express a posession.
    So first dative combined with lu forms posession (I have X), the second dative marks a recipient of this X.
    The both datives here can coexist only because they express two different things - posession and recipient.

2) The composite constituent, consisting of two or more nouns attached to each other by conjunction "".
    "Oe fyawolìntxu Kamunur Txewìru fte mefo pivähem ne kelku nìzawnong."
        - "I guided Kamun and Txewì in order to they arrived home safely."
    The thing that looks like double dative is in reality one big composite constituent in dative case.

These situations can be even combined, like "Lo oeru txantsana fmawn Kamunur sì Txewìr." - "I have great news for Kamun and Txewì", however in general, in one sentence there can't be more than one constituent marked by one case, to avoid ambiguity and senseless meaning.

What about:
Oe fyawìntxu Neytiriru ngaru. / I guide Neytiri to/for you.
Is that a fair double dative?
This is an example of such a nonsense. Correct versions can be two - it depends on desired meaning:
Oe fyawìntxu Neytiriru ne nga. - I guide Neytiri to you. (to the place where you are)
Oe fyawìntxu Neytiriru fpi nga. - I guide Neytiri for you. (for the sake of you)
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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2012, 03:34:17 pm »
Technically, there can't be more than one constituent marked as dative, in any particular sentence.

Technically, where are you getting this rule from?
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2012, 03:38:23 pm »
Technically, there can't be more than one constituent marked as dative, in any particular sentence.

Technically, where are you getting this rule from?

Have we ever been told that double dative is out? Given, it's rare, but is it illegal?

Anyway, right on ma Tanri with those last two:

Quote
Oe fyawìntxu Neytiriru ne nga. - I guide Neytiri to you. (to the place where you are)
Oe fyawìntxu Neytiriru fpi nga. - I guide Neytiri for you. (for the sake of you)


I guide Neytiri to you, i.e. toward your location,

(Oh? You can't guide Neytiri?) Then I guide Neytiri for you. ;)

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Offline Tanri

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2012, 03:51:33 pm »
Technically, there can't be more than one constituent marked as dative, in any particular sentence.
Technically, where are you getting this rule from?
Something you call pure speculation ;D
It's logical - how can you have more independent constituents marked by one case, in one sentence? I cannot imagine this situation - not as something against written rule, but against logic - producing confusion and misunderstanding.
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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:54:01 pm »
Tì'efumì oeyä, it should be lu oeru aylì'u a frapor :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 03:58:01 pm »
It's logical - how can you have more independent constituents marked by one case, in one sentence? I cannot imagine this situation - not as something against written rule, but against logic - producing confusion and misunderstanding.

Language is not bound by formal logic. :)  I can easily name you languages which not only allow double-datives (or double-accusatives), but require them in certain constructions.  My college Latin teacher called one "the dirty double dative."

Unless Pawl says it is forbidden, I would avoid saying it's not possible, especially given how many things the dative is used for in Na'vi.
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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 04:12:36 pm »
Tì'efumì oeyä, it should be lu oeru aylì'u a frapor :)
Bingo!
Two clauses, each containing one dative - looks like the end of speculations. ;)

Language is not bound by formal logic. :)  I can easily name you languages which not only allow double-datives (or double-accusatives), but require them in certain constructions.  My college Latin teacher called one "the dirty double dative."
Unless Pawl says it is forbidden, I would avoid saying it's not possible, especially given how many things the dative is used for in Na'vi.
OK, got the message :D
off topic
But those identically case marked constituents must be bound by some other rules - word order, combination with another part of the sentence etc... I hardly believe that truly independent, identically marked (thus interchangeable) constituents, can be used in meaningful sentence.
/off topic
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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 01:34:28 pm »
off topic
But those identically case marked constituents must be bound by some other rules - word order, combination with another part of the sentence etc... I hardly believe that truly independent, identically marked (thus interchangeable) constituents, can be used in meaningful sentence.
/off topic

True, I guess.
In German there are instances of two accusative objects
     ich frage dich (= acc.) etwas (= acc.) {I ask you something}
but
     ich sage dir (= dat.) etwas (= acc.) {I tell you something}

Other instances of double accusatives are governed by prepositions … which I don’t have an example at hand at the moment :P

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "Do you have something for me?" (Double dative?)
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 01:40:33 pm »
well yeah but thats because Many German prepositions cause noun case change, typically to dative or accusative. in na'vi, the opposite is true: prepositions cause the noun to have No case.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 01:42:49 pm by Tirea Aean »

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