Every single canon use of topic case

[Tirea Aean]

I have just spend a couple hours compiling the ULTIMATE list of EVERY SINGLE sentence (I could find) where Karyu Pawl has used the topic case including source links. Including furia and tsaria. I think now we have sufficient evidence of the topic case to provide a decent explanation of what exactly it is and how exactly it works. No more dodging it Here is my compilation:

EDIT: it was way too big to paste as a post. I have uploaded it here:

http://tirea.skxawng.lu/topic.html

DOUBLE EDIT: That link is broken. I'll upload the html file to this post. It's the latest local version I have. I don't know how complete it is, but I think it's complete.

[Prrton]

That's a LOT of topical.

One thing that we should be asking ourselves re: categorizations of when for what is: "Is it ever playing a(n optional) FOCUS role when grammatically there are also other ways to do the sentence?"

Sadly, I'm way too busy over the next several days to do any of that analysis.

[Tirea Aean]

That's a LOT of topical.

One thing that we should be asking ourselves re: categorizations of when for what is: "Is it ever playing a(n optional) FOCUS role when grammatically there are also other ways to do the sentence?"

Sadly, I'm way too busy over the next several days to do any of that analysis.

As I was going through, I noticed several sentences which could have been reworded to avoid using topic case and translate to the same concept. But at that, I figured maybe the topic version is more idiomatic or common? Or maybe KP thought of saying it that way, it came to his head first. many sentences IMO could not be reworded to avoid topical.

EDIT: also, that list of verbs at the top is not exhaustive as that section has some subjective element to it and I kinda just threw it together. Hmmmm

Also also, I noticed two main usages of topic case

* Establishing context for the clause
* idiomatically replacing the genitive in an inalienable possession construction

Thoughts?

DOUBLE EDIT: Beware the edits.

[Blue Elf]

Oh, huge thanks for list! I wanted to summarize topical usage some time ago, but I even not started such work. Now this list makes things much easier.
Irayo nìmun, ma Tirea!

[Swoka Swizaw]

And I thought me going through the dictionary to find all the bum "r" was impressive.

Tireari Aean po lu sìltsan nìtxan nang. (If the use of the topical is wrong, fine... But, for anyone unclear of the meaning, I mean that he is cool.)

[wm.annis]

Noice!  I shall have to draft you for the lexical work I've been doing recently.

Also also, I noticed two main usages of topic case

* Establishing context for the clause
* idiomatically replacing the genitive in an inalienable possession construction

Well, the first one, establishing context, is the classical definition of the topical, that's reassuring.

The problem with a lot of these examples is that the topical really comes into its own in context, in conversation.  Single sentences can almost never really give you a clear picture of its function.  Yet so much of our corpus is just that — isolated sentences.

[wm.annis]

As I was going through, I noticed several sentences which could have been reworded to avoid using topic case and translate to the same concept. But at that, I figured maybe the topic version is more idiomatic or common? Or maybe KP thought of saying it that way, it came to his head first. many sentences IMO could not be reworded to avoid topical.

The greatest difficulty with the topical, in terms of teaching people this language, is that unlike the other cases, the function of the topical is operating at a different level of discourse.  It's so much harder to pin down in a neat and tidy way, because its use so often depends not on the clause in which it occurs, but on what has come before.  That's harder to explain to beginners, who are overwhelmed with enough as it is.

[Tirea Aean]

Maybe that's just it. We need more Canon Paragraphs or stories or entire conversations. Oh! Speaking of which, I did not add the transcript of the Txewì story in there. Perhaps I should do that.

Draft me for lexical work? Like wot?

[Kamean]

Thousand thanks!

[Plumps]

Ma Tirea, ngeyä tìkangkemvi ro'a oer nìtxan!

Impressive.

From the Txewì-Story:

Poeri (= Grace) uniltìrantokxit tarmok a krr lam stum nìayfo, slä lu 'a'awa tìketeng – natkenong, tsyokxìri ke lu zekwä atsìng ki amrr.

Txewìyä sempulìri sngä'ikrr Sawtutet vere'kì. (Plltxe san zola'u sawtute fìtseng fte awngati skiva'a sìk.) Slä sa'nokìri fpìlfya lu keteng.

The last would be a good example for context — difference between father's and mother's opinions.

Sorry, I don't have the translation at hand. In my pile of (hopefully all) canon examples I didn't include translations to make word search easier.

[Tirea Aean]

Ma Tirea, ngeyä tìkangkemvi ro'a oer nìtxan!

Impressive.

From the Txewì-Story:

Poeri (= Grace) uniltìrantokxit tarmok a krr lam stum nìayfo, slä lu 'a'awa tìketeng – natkenong, tsyokxìri ke lu zekwä atsìng ki amrr.

Txewìyä sempulìri sngä'ikrr Sawtutet vere'kì. (Plltxe san zola'u sawtute fìtseng fte awngati skiva'a sìk.) Slä sa'nokìri fpìlfya lu keteng.

The last would be a good example for context — difference between father's and mother's opinions.

Sorry, I don't have the translation at hand. In my pile of (hopefully all) canon examples I didn't include translations to make word search easier.

There are more than just one use of topic in there right? I think I remember another one involving Grace and avatar and fingers

[Tirea Aean]

[..]Oh! Speaking of which, I did not add the transcript of the Txewì story in there. Perhaps I should do that.[..]

Done. I think that's everything now.

[Plumps]

There are more than just one use of topic in there right? I think I remember another one involving Grace and avatar and fingers

I count four and there were in my listing

[Tirea Aean]

There are more than just one use of topic in there right? I think I remember another one involving Grace and avatar and fingers

I count four and there were in my listing

Right. Those were added.

[Tirea Aean]

Let's add this to the list:

As for nume, I've been thinking of it as intransitive, in the sense of 'acquire knowledge or understanding.'

So to learn X, you use nume with X in the topical:

For example, here's some film dialog they asked me for that was never used:

You must learn to hunt with a bow and arrow.
Tsko swizawfa a tìtaronìri zene fko nivume.

So, nume is intransitive ... huh, quelle surprise!