'going' to sleep - too idomatic?

Started by Eyawng te Klltepayu, April 13, 2011, 01:13:55 AM

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Eyawng te Klltepayu

I've seen usage of phrases like oe kerä hivahaw. Is this good Na'vi or is it too idiomatic for a word to word translation? Do we have examples of this kind of thing from Frommer? After all, you're not actually going anywhere, you're about to sleep, or perhaps preparing to sleep.
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'Oma Tirea

It is in fact all too idiomatic and nì'Ìnglìsì...

The concept is better stated as something like oe hì(r)yahaw.

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Eyawng te Klltepayu

#2
That's what I thought, but Txonä said that Tirea Aean used it so...
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'Oma Tirea

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Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

this doesn't mean the same thing like in English (near future). it just means you are going (physically) to bed. actually this is grammatically incorrect. you can go to a place, not to an action. so I'd say: oe kerä ne tseng tìhusahawä. and this is of course a very complicated way of saying it. perhaps one would use it in poetry or literature or speaking formally. just use: oe hìyahaw.
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'Oma Tirea

...and as this is mentioned, txon lefpom :)

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omängum fra'uti

#6
Some other alternatives if "Oe hìyahaw" seems to simplistic for you...

Oe kan hivahaw
I am aiming/intend to sleep / I am about to sleep
Sweylu txo oe hivahaw
It is best if I sleep / I should sleep

It seems to me these catch the gist of the "I'm going to sleep" idiom better.

Edit: Fixed to the correct form of the sweylu line (Thanks for catching it Carborundum)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Ikran Ahiyìk

That "going" is not really kerä to me
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Carborundum

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on April 13, 2011, 02:48:38 AM
Sweylu fwa oe hahaw
It is best that I sleep / I should sleep
That's not quite right. For actions that have not yet happened, the syntax is sweylu txo... ‹iv›, so 'I should go to sleep' would be sweylu txo oe hivahaw.
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Plumps

Yet another possibility: Frommer loves the verb-on-verb construction.
As in one of his blog entries: za'u kaltxì si ... 'come (and) say hi'
So, the sentence oe k(ìy)ä hahaw (notice no ‹iv›) would mean 'I go (and then) sleep' but this 'go' would really be literal, 'go (away) from here'

Eyawng te Klltepayu

In situations like that, how do we know which verb happens first?
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Carborundum

Quote from: Eyawng te Klltepayu on April 13, 2011, 03:42:34 AM
In situations like that, how do we know which verb happens first?
Quote from: Dr. Frommer(If you're wondering about that structure: Two verbs back-to-back without a conjunction indicates that they're performed in sequence: come and (then) say hello.)
Source: http://naviteri.org/2010/09/getting-to-know-you-part-3/
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What about using "fte?" "oe kerä fte hivahaw" wouldn't be incorrect would it?

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Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

it would have another meaning: I'm going in order to sleep. as if the action of the going makes you wanna sleep.
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wm.annis

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on April 13, 2011, 10:11:52 AM
it would have another meaning: I'm going in order to sleep. as if the action of the going makes you wanna sleep.

That's a bit of an over reading of fte.  I think the fte-construction is a good choice.  The intentional future ( with -ìsy-) carries a similar tone, I think.

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

but the best is probably "oe kerä hìyahaw".
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oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on April 13, 2011, 12:30:38 PM
but the best is probably "oe kerä hìyahaw".
If what you're aiming for is a direct translation of an English phrase, or if you are indeed going somewhere.  However, kerä would not be correct unless you say that AS you are going.

However, one important thing to note here is that English does not have the future tense.  Like many other verb forms, English accomplishes it with helper verbs.  Just like "I am sleeping" uses a helper verb to mark a continuous action, future tense requires a helper verb.  That verb is typically either "will" or "be" and "go" together.  "I will sleep" and "I am going to sleep" (Also "I will be sleeping", "I am going to be sleeping", "I will have slept", "I am going to have slept", etc).

So...  If you see someone "is going to" something else...  That is just saying future tense.

In Na'vi, that would be "Oe hìyahaw".  Here's some other forms which would be roughly equivelent to the different English verb uses. (These equivalences aren't hard and fast rules, esp. with regard to ìsy vs. ìy, and I'm assuming this is all near future, distant future could also be used.)

I am going to sleepOe hìyahaw
I will sleepOe hìsyahaw
I am going to be sleepingOe hìryahaw
I will have sleptOe hìlyahaw
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Prrton

It feels to me that conversationally this would likely just be Oe kä hahaw. if you're getting up from a group of people and you're intending to walk or climb to your hammock in order to 'retire' for the night. If it is late and more or less 'time for bed' then no other clarification is needed. If one were feeling ill in the middle of the day unexpectedly then oe kìsyä fte fmivi hivahaw (I'm going now to try to get some sleep) seems more likely, since it would presumably be atypical to sleep mid-day.


omängum fra'uti

It still feels wrong to me to include kä in there.  It feels very strongly like an idiomatic expression born out of the English future tense form of "going to".  While I don't speak any other languages, in my little bit of research just now, I found no other language which included the verb "go" in the expression for "I'm going to sleep".  In Japanese, for example, I cam across "私が寝る午前" (watashi wa neru desu - I-TOP sleep is).

Based on what I've found, I feel pretty strongly that "going to ___verb___" should not be translated with kä in most cases.  Consider another use, "I'm going to leave"...  You wouldn't say "Oe kä hum", or even "Oe kä fte hivum".  You would probably say "Oe hum" or "Oe hìyum".

On the other hand, the imperative "Go to sleep" seems more interesting.  It's far more idiomatic (I can't think of another English imperative expression off the top of my head where "Go to ___verb___" is proper form.  Unfortunately Google translate was less than helpful with that one; for example in Japanese it tried to translate it as (Roughly) "Return to the sleep state" which doesn't cover all the English uses (Or even the most common I'd think) unless it's also colloquial which I suspect is not the case here.  However in Na'vi, it seems like "Hivahaw" should be good enough for "Go to sleep".  (Consider a child laying in bed and a parent standing over them saying "Go to sleep" - there is no going anywhere involved.)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Carborundum

#19
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on April 13, 2011, 05:07:14 PM
It still feels wrong to me to include kä in there.  It feels very strongly like an idiomatic expression born out of the English future tense form of "going to".  While I don't speak any other languages, in my little bit of research just now, I found no other language which included the verb "go" in the expression for "I'm going to sleep".
FWIW, Swedish does. The phrase is 'jag går och lägger mig', literally 'I'm going and laying myself down'. Swedish does not otherwise use the verb 'go' for the prospective aspect.

Edit: after thinking about this for another moment, I realise that the 'go' is the Swedish example refers to actual movement. If one is already in bed, the phrase isn't applicable like it is in English.
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