Help translating a quote?

Started by Stranger Come Knocking, November 09, 2013, 07:10:57 PM

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Stranger Come Knocking

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on December 27, 2013, 03:33:25 PM
Here is one possibility, not necessarily the best:

Tìyawnìri fpi tsmuk lu tengfya tsere'a key alu Yaweyä

I think the topical is optional here. Depending on context, you also might use kame rather than tse'a.
Just out of curiosity, why use "alu" and why doesn't "key" take any sort of ending? o.O
I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

These are my books.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery historical fiction.

Plumps

#21
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on December 27, 2013, 03:33:25 PM
Tìyawnìri a fpi smuk lu tengfya tsere'a keyti alu Yaweyä

I'm not so sure about fpi+ ... it's 'for the sake of s.o./s.t.' – people forget that most of the time and see only 'for'. But it doesn't have the meaning most of the time that the English preposition is used for. The topical is possible but the 'original' sentence would simply be:

lahea tute yawne lu fkor a fì'ul tse'a/kame keyti yaweyä

Stranger Come Knocking

Ooh.  Interesting, ma Plumps. o.o

I'm curious about the grammar of it, too.  Speaking kind-of in English, stripping away the "extra" words, it seems like this boils down to "To love is to see [kame]."  Would that be more like "Love is sight" since the former is like a metaphor between two abstract concepts?
I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

These are my books.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery historical fiction.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Plumps on December 27, 2013, 04:05:09 PM
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on December 27, 2013, 03:33:25 PM
Tìyawnìri a fpi smuk lu tengfya tsere'a keyti alu Yaweyä

I'm not so sure about fpi+ ... it's 'for the sake of s.o./s.t.' – people forget that most of the time and see only 'for'. But it doesn't have the meaning most of the time that the English preposition is used for. The topical is possible but the 'original' sentence would simply be:

lahea tute yawne lu fkor a fì'u tse'a/kame keyti yaweyä

Well, both kame/tse'a is transitive, but I don't see any agentive and IMHO something here is still missing. thinking.....

Fwa lahea tute yawne lu fkor lu teng na fwa fkol tse'a/kame keyti yaweyä.
Very literally: That one loves another people is the same as that one see face of God.
Better or not?

Quote"Love for a brother is the sight of God's face."
Fwa tsmuk yawne lu fkor lu 'ur Yaweyä keyä. (That one loves brother is sight of God's face).
It seems too literal, but otherwise it should be correct.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

Quote from: Blue Elf on December 27, 2013, 05:07:40 PM
Fwa lahea tute yawne lu fkor lu teng na fwa fkol tse'a/kame keyti yaweyä.
Very literally: That one loves another people is the same as that one see face of God.
Better or not?

teng na? I'd say teng hu :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

Note that I did a little change after pondering a bit over it ;) – basically what Blue Elf said. I noticed that there is no agentive present in the main clause. Let me explain:

Quote from: Stranger Come Knocking on December 27, 2013, 04:13:52 PMI'm curious about the grammar of it, too.

lahea tute yawne lu fkor a fì'ul tse'a/kame keyti yaweyä
other person beloved is to-one (is) that this-thing sees the face of god

To love someone we say 'someone is beloved to somebody'


Quote from: Stranger Come Knocking on December 27, 2013, 04:13:52 PMSpeaking kind-of in English, stripping away the "extra" words, it seems like this boils down to "To love is to see [kame]."  Would that be more like "Love is sight" since the former is like a metaphor between two abstract concepts?

'To love is to see', yes indeed. The problem is that in Na'vi we can't connect verbs simply as that via lu. The verb 'to be' needs nouns. And that's where the f-words come into play ;) 'to read is to learn' would be transcribed in Na'vi as 'the thing/action which is read(ing) is the thing/action which is learn(ing)' because here 'the thing is the thing' can be connected by lu ››› fwa inan lu fwa nume.

It gets more complicated when we realise that there is no simple verb 'to love'. I would circumvent that by using the noun 'love' ››› tìyawn lu fwa tse'a/kame

I'm a bit torn between using a fì'ul or a fìkemìl in your example because Na'vi is very specific to distinguish whether 'it/that' is an action or a thing but we have a few examples where fwa/a fì'u is used where technically it would be better to use 'action'.

The sentence says, 'this action (which is: another person is beloved to one) sees the face of god'. 'see' here is of course transitive that's why the L ending has to come on 'this thing/action'. One could also say fì'ul a lahea tute yawne lu fkor tse'a keyti yaweyä but I guess that's a bit confusing. Left-branching to keep main and subordinate clause seperated is a good way to make the meaning clear. The topic version is of course possible but is more a matter of style within what you want to say rather than a grammatical necessity. ;)

Blue Elf

Quote from: Kemaweyan on December 27, 2013, 05:15:31 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on December 27, 2013, 05:07:40 PM
Fwa lahea tute yawne lu fkor lu teng na fwa fkol tse'a/kame keyti yaweyä.
Very literally: That one loves another people is the same as that one see face of God.
Better or not?

teng na? I'd say teng hu :)
Why? "Same with" instead "same as (na/pxel)"? I don't see any sense in such usage...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

Actually I can't see any examples with teng na/hu. «Same as» is possible in English, but Na'vi is not English :) We need to ask Pawl.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Blue Elf

Quote from: Kemaweyan on December 27, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Actually I can't see any examples with teng na/hu. «Same as» is possible in English, but Na'vi is not English :) We need to ask Pawl.
We do not have any example how to say "X is same as Y"? Well, taking note....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

Quote from: Blue Elf on December 27, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on December 27, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
Actually I can't see any examples with teng na/hu. «Same as» is possible in English, but Na'vi is not English :) We need to ask Pawl.
We do not have any example how to say "X is same as Y"? Well, taking note....

We have examples "X and Y are same" only.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

N'wah

Wouldn't a more basic, stripped down, non-poetic version of that sentence be -

To love another person is like seeing (spiritual sense) the face of God?

To love another person is like/the same as seeing the face of God

See the face of God -> understand God?