How should pe+ constructions be classed?

Started by Kiliyä, January 20, 2010, 04:28:09 PM

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Kiliyä

In Taronyu's dictionary, the pe+ constructions, including things like pehrr and peu, et al, are classed as adv.  But is this accurate?  What about interrogative particles, or even correlatives?  What say you?
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Taronyu

Quote from: Kiliyä on January 20, 2010, 04:28:09 PM
What say you?

Aragorn is the man.

/ontopic. Poll?

I suggest correlatives for the entire lot.

Kiliyä

So,

pe+
fì=
fra-
tsa-

Any others?  Do we need a table, like Esperanto?
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

omängum fra'uti

fay+ (Plural of fì)
*tsay+ (Plural of tsa?)
*la- other
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Kiliyä

Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Taronyu

I added all of those.

Perhaps I could sue the word deictics?

Kiliyä

Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Ftiafpi


roger

#8
Quote from: Taronyu on January 20, 2010, 04:30:38 PM
I suggest correlatives for the entire lot.

That recalls the Esperanto set, which is similar, so may be a good idea for the whole set (not just the pe+ words). But as far as I can tell, technically it's incorrect. Per the OED, "correlatives" are "words corresponding to each other, and regularly used together, each in one member of a compound or complex sentence: e.g. either—or; so—as."

In Esperanto, that works because the relative pronouns are regularly used with the demonstratives: tio—kio, tiam—kiam, tiel—kiel, etc. (the latter being "so—as"), and this covers 40% of the table. But Na'vi doesn't have relative pronouns, and I haven't seen these words working together like this. (Has anyone else?)

roger

#9
Quote from: Kiliyä on January 20, 2010, 04:28:09 PM
In Taronyu's dictionary, the pe+ constructions, including things like pehrr and peu, et al, are classed as adv.  But is this accurate?  What about interrogative particles, or even correlatives?  What say you?
I'd just call them "interrogatives". Most are interrogative adverbs, but peu, pesu are interrogative pronouns.

omängum fra'uti

What about
pepak?  (What the....)
pepxasìk (What the f...)

(Tongue firmly planted in cheek of course)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

suomichris

Well, if we're thinking just about the question words, then I'd class them as question words :p  Or interrogatives if we want to be fancy...

They're not really deictics, since the part that replaces the question marker pe- is the deictic bit...

Lance R. Casey

#12
Quote from: roger on January 21, 2010, 01:12:10 AM
Quote from: Kiliyä on January 20, 2010, 04:28:09 PM
In Taronyu's dictionary, the pe+ constructions, including things like pehrr and peu, et al, are classed as adv.  But is this accurate?  What about interrogative particles, or even correlatives?  What say you?
I'd just call them "interrogatives". Most are interrogative adverbs, but peu, pesu are interrogative pronouns.

I too would prefer to label all pe+-words "interrogatives" and be done with it. As for the other kinds, the situation seems to be a bit more complex.

The demonstrative prefixes have been demonstrated (ha) as both noun modifiers and VP modifiers, even within the same clause:

Fayvrrtep tsenge lu kxanì

The first word is still an intransitive subject, as it would be without the deictic marker, whereas the second word has changed into an adverbial role. On the other hand, there's in all likelihood nothing strange about fìtseng lu lor either, so I don't think we can unequivocally classify words modified in this way. The modifiers themselves could be called deictics, but the words arising from them would probably have to be classified on a case by case basis, and quite possibly with more than one definition. We know that Na'vi has at least one word that is flexible in such a way also by itself: krr.

// Lance R. Casey

Taronyu

Classed all pe+ words as interrogatives.

For fì words: should I use deictic? Or correlatives? Or demonstratives?

roger

They are not correlatives. They are deictic, but demonstrative is more precise.