Author Topic: I ask myself how/what/who...  (Read 2686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
I ask myself how/what/who...
« on: November 04, 2014, 02:46:14 pm »
Well, probably there is an easy answer, but I want to be on the safe side.

I'm trying to translate a sentece like this:

         I ask myself what way of living other people have?

And I get this:

         A) Oe päpawm, pereyfya lahea suter lu?

but it could be also:

         B) Oe päpawm san pereyfya lahea suter lu? (sìk)

On Na'viteri I can find following examples with the intransitive use of pawm: Polawm po, Neytiri kä pesengne? and Polawm po san Neytiri kä pesengne (sìk). But I'm not sure how is the situation with pawm and reflexive <äp>...
My question is, whether A or B or both A and B are correct? ??? (I think, both examples are correct, but I better ask.)

Btw, is "oe päpawng..." to germanic/idiomatic?

Seiyi irayo nìli! :)

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Wllìm

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 50
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2014, 03:21:29 pm »
I wonder if päpawm actually works here... I think (but I'm not sure!) that oe päpawm is equivalent to oel pawm oeti, and not oe pawm oeru or something like that  ???

Edit: said differently, pawm is intransitive, and as far as I know <äp> doesn't work for intransitive verbs...
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4767
  • us United States
  • Karma: 44
  • Palulukan alu Kenya 06/23/1996 - 01/15/2017
    • The Lionlamb website
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2014, 03:23:33 pm »
Since <äp> makes a verb intransitive, po päpawm is correct, as is po polawm because you are using pawm antipassively.

I think both of your answers are correct and useable, because they follow what K. Pawl says is correct on Na'viteri. However, I think the one that uses san...sìk is probably better, as it follows better with the Na'vi custom of direct speech. Another observation of those examples is that po remains in the subjective/nominative case in the quoted speech example given, even though the quote looks like kind of an 'object'. Since päpawm is intransitive in your example, this is even more correct.

Ma Willim, I think that oel pawm oeti and oel pawm oeru pretty much mean the same thing, so oe päpawm is pretty unambigious in meaning.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 03:27:15 pm by `Eylan Ayfalulukanä »

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 03:40:43 pm »
in the verb ask/pawm...

The agent is the person asking.
The patient is the question, or what is actually being asked.
The dative is who receives the question, to whom the question is aked.

Oel polawm poru tsatìpawmit li. = I asked her that question already.

So For this reason, no, you cannot say either of oel polawm oeti or oe päpawm. You don't ask a person; you ask a question, to/of a person.

And in general, pawm is used intransitively, since the direct object is basically ALWAYS "question" or "that" or "this", in reference to "question"...

Oe poru pawm... etc, just like in the examples given in OP.

EDIT:
I wonder if päpawm actually works here... I think (but I'm not sure!) that oe päpawm is equivalent to oel pawm oeti, and not oe pawm oeru or something like that  ???

Edit: said differently, pawm is intransitive, and as far as I know <äp> doesn't work for intransitive verbs...

^ actually, not necessarily this..

EDIT 2: So I suppose, that to say what OP wants is literally needing to say this:

Oe oeru pawm, ... (with or without quotation works)

And I too have to wonder if something exactly like this is said. It seems to make sense. Even if it's direct.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 03:59:21 pm by Tirea Aean »

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2014, 03:54:37 pm »
Edit: said differently, pawm is intransitive, and as far as I know <äp> doesn't work for intransitive verbs...
That's correct, but pawm (and plltxe as well) can have a transitive structure.
With pawm as with plltxe, there are both transitive and intransitive structures.
That's what confuse me a bit. What if one use it transitively? ???

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2014, 03:57:43 pm »
Edit: said differently, pawm is intransitive, and as far as I know <äp> doesn't work for intransitive verbs...
That's correct, but pawm (and plltxe as well) can have a transitive structure.
With pawm as with plltxe, there are both transitive and intransitive structures.
That's what confuse me a bit. What if one use it transitively? ???

Ah, that's right. I just checked the dictionary and saw that it lists pawm as vin. only. I think that it needs to be changed to say vin., vtr. or somethng like that.

So yeah. If this is the case, then I un-strikeout the stuff in my previous post..

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Online Vawmataw

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6680
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 103
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2014, 04:13:54 pm »
This is why we need an annotated dictionary.

*bows down in front of Plumps*
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News every weekend IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Kelutral.fr editor

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4767
  • us United States
  • Karma: 44
  • Palulukan alu Kenya 06/23/1996 - 01/15/2017
    • The Lionlamb website
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2014, 10:16:52 pm »
Does that make pawm like nume, in that its intransitivity surprised us?

And why can't you "ask yourself"? That might be a tad idiomatic in English, but it certainly makes sense in Na'vu as well.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 06:34:50 am »
I agree with Wllìm. Oe päpawm would mean oel pawm oeti. You say that pawm is used intransitively, but it does not mean that it is not transitive. For example oe taron. Here taron also is used intransitively, but what would mean oe täparon? Right: oel taron oeti.

So I think the only way to say «I ask myself» is oe pawm oer (also oel pawm oer tìpawmit).
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2014, 11:46:02 am »
So, by this logic, win säpi <ramdom example> would mean Oel win si oet, but wait, it should be Oe win si oeru as win si is intransitive? :o ??? :-X :-\
Ok, si-verbs are weird but could that not be, that pawm and plltxe are "pseudo-transitive" or "pseudo-intranitive" like some (not all) si-verbs?

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Karma: 224
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 02:55:38 pm »
I agree with Wllìm. Oe päpawm would mean oel pawm oeti. You say that pawm is used intransitively, but it does not mean that it is not transitive. For example oe taron. Here taron also is used intransitively, but what would mean oe täparon? Right: oel taron oeti.

So I think the only way to say «I ask myself» is oe pawm oer (also oel pawm oer tìpawmit).

Sorry to say this but this is the perfect example where this kind of ‘logic’ fails.

If the direct object is the thing with which something is done then *oel pawm oeti cannot mean “I ask myself” – it would mean something like “I ask I” in the sense that in “I ask a question”, question is the direct object. I still hold that this is not a valid construct but we had this already. I agree, it’s grammatical but it does not make sense – especially with ditransitive verbs.

If at all, this example shows that oel pawm oeru would be the closest to come to the meaning of “I ask myself” (lit.: I ask/pose (a question) to-me).

Oe täparon = “I hunt myself” – schizophrenic ;D but the same logic as if you’d say oe tsäpe’a or oe mäpun’i. ‹äp› refers back to the subject/agent of the action, something that the direct object cannot do. That’s why it’s called agent and patient, subject and direct object. They are not one and the same thing (on a grammatical level – semantically is something different).

Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • us United States
  • Karma: 42
  • Poe a za’u sì kä
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 05:05:28 pm »
I ask myself what way of living other people have?

Too bad we don't have a word for "wonder."

If you're "asking yourself" this question, then I assume you wouldn't expect yourself to know the answer. Therefore I can't help but feel this sort of statement might be a candidate for -ats- infixation:
Quote
ats: inferential, indicating uncertainty or indirect knowledge verbal infix in position
2 ( INFR .): Oel tsp«ats»ang poanit. I killed him (I think.)

I can't think of any reasonable examples, though.
"Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart give yourself to it."

Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • us United States
  • Karma: 42
  • Poe a za’u sì kä
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 05:11:07 pm »
If the general meaning of this statement is "I wonder ...", then this might also be an opportunity for a Na’vi idiom.

Oel Eywar pawm ...?
Oel sirear pawm ...?
Oel aysanhìr pawm ...?
"Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart give yourself to it."

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 05:15:29 pm »
If the direct object is the thing with which something is done then *oel pawm oeti cannot mean “I ask myself” – it would mean something like “I ask I” in the sense that in “I ask a question”, question is the direct object.

Right. That's what I mean. So..

If at all, this example shows that oel pawm oeru would be the closest to come to the meaning of “I ask myself” (lit.: I ask/pose (a question) to-me).

And we can't use -äp- here.

Oe täparon = “I hunt myself” – schizophrenic ;D but the same logic as if you’d say oe tsäpe’a or oe mäpun’i. ‹äp› refers back to the subject/agent of the action, something that the direct object cannot do. That’s why it’s called agent and patient, subject and direct object. They are not one and the same thing (on a grammatical level – semantically is something different).

You can see yourself in the mirror :P Also you can cut yourself.. Grammatically it's completely correct :)

So, by this logic, win säpi <ramdom example> would mean Oel win si oet, but wait, it should be Oe win si oeru as win si is intransitive? :o ??? :-X :-\

si-verbs are intransitive, so this analogy is incorrect. It's just an exception, but general rule says that -äp- could be used with transitive verbs only. It means that an agent and direct object (-ti) are the same person/thing and it makes transitive verb intransitive. There is nothing about -ru. If you mean that plltxe, pawm etc. also are exceptions, we need a confirmation from Pawl. For now we might not think that oe päpawm means «I ask myself».
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 05:40:12 pm by Kemaweyan »
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6229
  • Karma: 224
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 01:53:17 am »
If at all, this example shows that oel pawm oeru would be the closest to come to the meaning of “I ask myself” (lit.: I ask/pose (a question) to-me).

And we can't use -äp- here.

Aaaaaah :) now I get what you mean! *facepalm* Right, that’s a very good observation.

Oe täparon = “I hunt myself” – schizophrenic ;D but the same logic as if you’d say oe tsäpe’a or oe mäpun’i. ‹äp› refers back to the subject/agent of the action, something that the direct object cannot do. That’s why it’s called agent and patient, subject and direct object. They are not one and the same thing (on a grammatical level – semantically is something different).

You can see yourself in the mirror :P Also you can cut yourself.. Grammatically it's completely correct :)

I know. That’s what I meant. The form may be grammatically possible but it does not always makes sense, right? :)


Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 05:25:03 am »
I know. That’s what I meant. The form may be grammatically possible but it does not always makes sense, right? :)

Right. That was just an example how -äp- works in transitive verbs which also could be used intransitively. I mean oe täparon.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2014, 08:30:25 pm »
In late to second all of Kemaweyan's posts.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2014, 10:01:20 am »

So, I see it should become following stuff:

         A) Oe pawm oer, pereyfya lahea suter lu?
OR
         B) Oe pawm oer san pereyfya lahea suter lu? (sìk)
Srak?
(I'm not very happy with that, but I'll accept that rule.)

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2014, 03:23:08 pm »

So, I see it should become following stuff:

         A) Oe pawm oer, pereyfya lahea suter lu?
OR
         B) Oe pawm oer san pereyfya lahea suter lu? (sìk)
Srak?
(I'm not very happy with that, but I'll accept that rule.)

Srane. And I'm just fine with that. In fact, I believe Esperanto does the same thing as this, too.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: I ask myself how/what/who...
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2014, 03:46:09 pm »
Yeah, the general idea of a reflexive is to avoid a similar object. More detailed said, a reflexive avoid cases like oel tse'a oet - subject = direct object. But the funny thing is, only transitive verbs can have direct objects. Theoretically, it would be nothing on the way to expand that 'rule' to indirect object, in order to let work it also for intransitive verbs that can have indirect objects. But as mentioned, in Na'vi, reflexive works only in transitive verbs (plus some si-verbs).
 :)

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi