Speculation - reading between the lines

Started by omängum fra'uti, December 22, 2009, 05:19:09 AM

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ritx

Could I get opinions on a few infixes?  I'll use dashes around them instead of angle brackets in case angle brackets convert to html tags and get dropped.

-us-.   From the lexicon, much knowing = txantslusam ?= txan-tsl-us-am = much-know-ing.  That implies -us- is the participial (which gets mentioned but not explicitly given in the grammar notes), thus tusaron = hunting.  Credible?

-iy-.   It sounds like general consensus is that this represents near future, or perhaps intention, which is approximately the same thing.  The only instances I know of are one piylltxe (will speak or intend to speak) and kiyevame (will see or intend to see).  If it really is intention as opposed to future, is it believeable that -ev- / -ov- is near future, so tovaron = will hunt soon, kiyevame = intend to see you soon, and piylltxe = intend to speak now?  Are there other instances of -iy- that support/deny the idea?

-iv-.  The instances I've seen are consistent with an infinitve marker.  oeru txoa livu = forgiveness be to me (similar to "peace be with you" when you really mean "may peace be with you").  (from the skxawng article) ke nihawng livok = not to be too close.  pivangkxo = who knows what, but perhaps to chat.  (from the skxwang article) tsun tuteti tspivanko = can kill a person, where kill is infinitive following the helper verb can.  Are there other instances inconsistent with that interpretation?




Prrton

Quote from: ritx on December 26, 2009, 12:54:22 PM
Could I get opinions on a few infixes?  I'll use dashes around them instead of angle brackets in case angle brackets convert to html tags and get dropped.

Oeru txopu längu nìtxan slä...

Quote
-us-.   From the lexicon, much knowing = txantslusam ?= txan-tsl-us-am = much-know-ing.  That implies -us- is the participial (which gets mentioned but not explicitly given in the grammar notes), thus tusaron = hunting.  Credible?

Nìwotx nang! Based on your sìlronsema tìsteftxaw I am willing to start using this (only to derive adjectives from verbs, not to replace *txana tì'tslam (à la "prodigious insight" (although that would probably involve kame in real Na'vi)). その内に出る釘は打たれる。(In time the standing nail will be hammered down.)If we're wrong, will a slap on the wrist by a Na'vi break it? Hummmm...?? Ha, tusarona tskxekengri ("hunting exercise"/"training related to hunting"), srane. Slä, oeri ral "tìtaron"yä ke tsun lu. Oeru txoa livu.

Quote
-iy-.   It sounds like general consensus is that this represents near future, or perhaps intention, which is approximately the same thing.  The only instances I know of are one piylltxe (will speak or intend to speak) and kiyevame (will see or intend to see).  If it really is intention as opposed to future, is it believeable that -ev- / -ov- is near future, so tovaron = will hunt soon, kiyevame = intend to see you soon, and piylltxe = intend to speak now?  Are there other instances of -iy- that support/deny the idea?

I'll use -iy- for near future. (Pragmatic Texan on Pandora; "I'm fiddin'da kill me summa them thanatorz, y'all in?"). That's it. I don't know of any other -iy- attestation in other contexts to rely on to inform your theory. Just like Depeche Mode says: "Lu ke'u ke.ts-us-un." ;) But, I'm not willing to stake any claims on -ev-/-ov- at this point. (Oeyä "."ru txoa livu.)

Quote
-iv-.  The instances I've seen are consistent with an infinitve marker.  oeru txoa livu = forgiveness be to me (similar to "peace be with you" when you really mean "may peace be with you").  (from the skxawng article) ke nihawng livok = not to be too close.  pivangkxo = who knows what, but perhaps to chat.  (from the skxwang article) tsun tuteti tspivanko = can kill a person, where kill is infinitive following the helper verb can.  Are there other instances inconsistent with that interpretation?

I still think that -iv- marks subjunctive/conditional, but languages are funny. There could be more than one -iv-. Japanese has at least 3 to 4 のs. ([-no] marks possession, nominalizes verbs, marks subjects/agents optionally in relative clauses in the stead of [ŋa/ga], assists in the asking of questions if you're a woman or a really-gay-and-proud-of-it man... When one asks native speakers, "Why can [no] do so many different things...?" They often answer, à la "Oh, that [no] is different. They aren't the same [no]s."

And I submit to you in good ol' Ìnglìsì:

"Oh, that's not that that. That's the that for that!"

Oeru txoa l-iv-u. "That forgiveness might-come-to/might-exist-for me."

And for the phrase nari si fteke nìhawng l-iv-ok. >>> "take care lest (so that don't) we be-SUBJ. exceedingly close." That's what I think and I'm stickin' with it (for now. Until I'm hammered down (by Paul Frommer)).

txura utral

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on December 23, 2009, 05:13:56 AM
It gets more interesting.

From http://www.bworldonline.com/main/content.php?id=3588

Quote"rather than putting something at the beginning or end, you put something right after the 't,' so various forms appear: 'tovaron, telaron, tusaron, tairon,'" Frommer said.

So now we have "ov", "el", "us" and... tairon?  That last one doesn't even follow the same form as the rest!

I honestly think that the interviewers screwed up. Their interpretations of Na'vi sounds are more english oriented as they have most likely not read the phonology rules for Na'vi. So their Na'vi transcriptions are probably just them listening to Frommer speak and writing what they hear.
Na'viti ayngal nume, ayskxawng!
Learn your Na'vi, morons!

I apologize in advance for my grammar.

okrìsti

#23
Hi,
really just want to know what you are thinking about my interpretations, so I will quote myself about twice, but you can ingore these, because they are in German, I am going to extract my points.

Quote from: okrìsti on January 06, 2010, 07:55:00 AM
Ich übe mich etwas im "Hören", daher nehme ich kleine Beispielstückchen aus Interview etc, oft wird dann noch dazu gesagt, was es heißen soll, so dass man einen Anhaltspunkt hat, nach welchen Worten man Ausschau halten soll.

Zur Zeit knabbere ich an folgendener etwas längerer Audiodatei mit ein paar gesprochenen Sätzen Frommers:
Quote from: Is. on January 04, 2010, 05:46:38 PM
For those of you who want to hear more of Frommer speaking Na'vi, here's some:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/audio/magazine/20091129_LANGUAGE/navi2.mp3

He's saying:

-Yesterday I was with Txewì in the forest and we saw the biggest Trapper [type of carnivorous plant] I've ever seen.

-Those things are dangerous. They can kill a person, you know.

-I know. We were careful not to get too close.

[...]

Das 'ufo gehört zum zweiten Teil:
'ufo lehrrap - Diese Dinger sind gefährlich.
Das ist etwas undeutlicher, es kann auch sein, falls ein Verb ("lu") benötigt würde, könnte ich mir auch "lu fo lehrrap" vorstellen, wobei ich dann nicht wüsste, wie das zu kombinieren sei.

Ich wäre auf weitere Ideen und Vorschläge gespannt.
Christian

I was listening to some Soundfiles available from Frommer, the red highlighted is what I am talking about.
I have not had any transcriptions, some parts I found later on the wikipedia article.
The first and last line I found written down at that point, but the middle one with "those things are dangerous", I did not.
So I imagined a combination of 'u and fo to 'ufo for "those things", where im not shure if there would be a space in between. I might also be totally wrong on that one (then maybe "lu fo lehrrap").  :-[




With that iv I have already tried to build some phrases, assuming I can some how use it as subjuntive like the wikipedia article indicates with plenty examples:
Quote from: okrìsti on January 06, 2010, 02:58:39 PM[...] oeri z·ol·a'u fte n·iv·ume lahe lì'fya [...]
Which should express: "I came to learn another language."

Quote from: okrìsti on January 07, 2010, 04:20:22 PM[...]
The same as in the quote, but translated:
(ay?)lì'upongu trryä:
group of words (= sentence) of the day: (Are these combined correctly, has lì'u to taken into plural? Then sentences (pl.) result as ayaylì'upongu? Even totally messed up? - Dunno.)


  • fratrr oeri sivi sìltsan(a?)'u
    every+day I(!) do<sjv> good+thing
    I wish I would do a good thing (deed) every day. ;)

  • ngal oeti pivlltxe fa skype: ...
    you me speak<sjv>(suggestive/-ing) via skype...
    You could talk to me via skype.

  • sìltsana yomyu ngayä livu
    good food yours be<sjv>(wish)
    May your meal be good. (As: Enjoy your meal.)

  • nìmun frakrr
    again every+time
    ... (as a short response to "irayo tsmukan" for a small favor)

I tried to donate some controversial stuff, hopefully (at least for me) it is not too wrong. ;)
dA | nga tsun oehu pivlltxe fa skype: c4duser
awngeyä wìki sìltsan lu
txopu lu fya'o ne vawma pa'o – nawma karyu Yotxa

Prrton

Quote from: okrìsti on January 07, 2010, 10:14:21 PM
I tried to donate some controversial stuff, hopefully (at least for me) it is not too wrong. ;)

These are great! I might approach the things you seem to want to say as in the following:

QuoteSo I imagined a combination of 'u and fo to 'ufo for "those things", where im not shure if there would be a space in between. I might also be totally wrong on that one (then maybe "lu fo lehrrap").  :-[

Fay'u lehrrap lu. (or Fay'u lehrrap l-äng-u., if you are unhappy or upset that they are dangerous).

Quote[...] oeri z·ol·a'u fte n·iv·ume lahe lì'fya [...]
Which should express: "I came to learn another language."

Oe.ri z·ol·a'u fte n·iv·ume lì'fya.t a.lahe.

Oe.ri can absorb the role of oe.l (so that oe.l doesn't have to be in the sentence), but lì'fya is the thing being acted on by the transitive verb nume, so it likely needs an accusative marker (-t, or -ti) to be explicitly clear. Lahe is an adjective, so it needs an a attached to it between it and the language name it's modifying.

I might also say (just as an alternative):

Oe.ri z·ol·a'u fte tsun lì'fya.t a.lahe n·iv·ume. (I came to be able to learn another language.)

Quote
The same as in the quote, but translated:
(ay?)lì'upongu trryä:
group of words (= sentence) of the day: (Are these combined correctly, has lì'u to taken into plural? Then sentences (pl.) result as ayaylì'upongu? Even totally messed up? - Dunno.)

I won't hazard a guess at "'sentence' of the day" but Fìtrryä Txele ("Subject of the Day") is close.

Quote

  • fratrr oeri sivi sìltsan(a?)'u
    every+day I(!) do<sjv> good+thing
    I wish I would do a good thing (deed) every day. ;)

This could be expressed very differently in Na'vi grammar than in English:

May my actions be good for the sake of everyone every day.

Hem oe.yä fpi frapo fratrr sìltsan l-iv-ei-u.

Kem is the word for "action." It can be pluralized as ay+kem >>> ay.hem (lenition) >>> ay.hem >>> hem

Quote

  • ngal oeti pivlltxe fa skype: ...
    you me speak<sjv>(suggestive/-ing) via skype...
    You could talk to me via skype.

Nga tsun fa skype oe.hu p-iv-lltxe.

The -hu on oe is "with" and does not manipulate the person on the other end of Skype so nga does not take -l.

Quote

  • sìltsana yomyu ngayä livu
    good food yours be<sjv>(wish)
    May your meal be good. (As: Enjoy your meal.)

Sìltsana wutso ngaru l-iv-ei-u.

The ending -yu would turn yom into "eater/consumer (of food)." Wutso is a "served meal" (e.g. "dinner")

Quote

  • nìmun frakrr
    again every+time
    ... (as a short response to "irayo tsmukan" for a small favor)

This is a nice concept. I'll offer back Oe.ru meuia as something I could see the Na'vi saying.

(It was an) honor for me (to be able to do it for you.)

The fuller more proper form might be.

Oe.ru meuia l-ol-ei-u. ("It was a pleasant honor for me.")


Eywa ngahu ulte irayo ma tsmuk! Nga tìng.yu fpi fìpongu oengeyä l-ei-u nang!