Author Topic: It's the honest ones  (Read 865 times)

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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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It's the honest ones
« on: April 12, 2015, 06:59:08 am »
So I have a construction that I'm pretty sure would use the topical in Na'vi, but wanted to get your input.  The basic construction works about like this:

"Me, I'm dishonest.  And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.  Honestly.  It's the honest ones you have to watch out for."

My thoughts,

Me, [I'm dishonest].  And [a dishonest man-pat.] [you can always trust-ag] [to be dishonest-rel.]  Honestly.  [It's the honest ones-top.] [you have to watch out for-ag]
Oe, oe lu kengay*.  Ulte tutanit akengay ngal frakrr tsun mivong a lu kengay.  Nìngay.  Ngaya suteri zene nari sivi.  Taluna nga ke tsun srivese'a kawkrr a fo 'uo kem sayi nìtxan nìskxawng.

*made-up word because "tsleng" didn't seem to fit

What do you think?


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I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Plumps

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2015, 12:27:27 pm »
Interesting… hmmm

So I have a construction that I'm pretty sure would use the topical in Na'vi, but wanted to get your input.  The basic construction works about like this:

"Me, I'm dishonest.  And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.  Honestly.  It's the honest ones you have to watch out for."

My thoughts,

Me, [I'm dishonest].  And [a dishonest man-pat.] [you can always trust-ag] [to be dishonest-rel.]  Honestly.  [It's the honest ones-top.] [you have to watch out for-ag]
Oe, oe lu kengay*.  Ulte tutanit akengay ngal frakrr tsun mivong a lu kengay.  Nìngay.  Ngaya suteri zene nari sivi.  Taluna nga ke tsun srivese'a kawkrr a fo 'uo kem sayi nìtxan nìskxawng.

I’d translate it like this …

Oeri, oe lu kengay. Ulte nga tsun livu law fwa kengaya tutan lu kengay. Nìngay. Ngaya suteri nga zene nari sivi.

I used the first one as topic as well because of emphasis. We have a few examples now where this becomes apparent.

I changed the word order in the second sentence because in your example there was no obvious connection between the {a lu kengay} sentence and the object refered to.

I wouldn’t use mong here because to me “trust s.o. to be s.t.” seems like an idiom to me. What you say is that it’s clear or obvious to you that the guy is that way, right?

For your consideration: Do you really address someone directly, i.e. “you” ~ nga, or do you make a general observation, i.e. “you/one” ~ fko?

Not sure about the last bit because there’s no original sentence. So, I’m not sure about what meaning you intended. But it’s
Taluna nga ke tsun sresive’a kawkrr … because of infix positions.
The rest I can’t really make sense of.

Otherwise, I think your use of the topical is spot-on ;) It has more to do with the usage of “be aware of s.t.”, though, but it works in connection in this text as well.

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2015, 01:43:23 pm »
Full quote:
"Me, I'm dishonest.  And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.  Honestly.  It's the honest ones you want to watch out for.  Because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid."
-Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl

Quote
Ulte nga tsun livu law fwa kengaya tutan lu kengay.
And you can be clear that a dishonest man is dishonest.

Roughly?

Quote
Not sure about the last bit because there’s no original sentence. So, I’m not sure about what meaning you intended. But it’s
Taluna nga ke tsun sresive’a kawkrr … because of infix positions.
The rest I can’t really make sense of.

Yeah, it's a bad word-for-word.  We need a word (adjective) for "stupid."


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Plumps

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2015, 04:24:15 pm »
Full quote:
"Me, I'm dishonest.  And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.  Honestly.  It's the honest ones you want to watch out for.  Because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid."
-Captain Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl
:o :-X Why didn’t I recognise this? I have to watch that again :P

I see.

Quote
Ulte nga tsun livu law fwa kengaya tutan lu kengay.
And you can be clear that a dishonest man is dishonest.

Roughly?
Yes. For me, law also has the power of “sure”. Law lu oer… “it’s clear to me/I’m sure”

Yeah, it's a bad word-for-word.  We need a word (adjective) for "stupid."

How do you feel about snumìna? I remember that snumìna skxawng was translated as “stupid moron” in the GMA recordings.

That would lead to:

Taluna nga ke tsun sresive’a kawkrr kemot a fo sayi nìsnumìna/nìfya’o asnumìna nìtxan.
Because you can never predict when they do something very stupidly/in a very stupid manner.
lit.: never forsee some action that they do stupidly

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2015, 05:19:33 pm »
Yeah, it's a bad word-for-word.  We need a word (adjective) for "stupid."

How do you feel about snumìna? I remember that snumìna skxawng was translated as “stupid moron” in the GMA recordings.

That would lead to:

Taluna nga ke tsun sresive’a kawkrr kemot a fo sayi nìsnumìna/nìfya’o asnumìna nìtxan.
Because you can never predict when they do something very stupidly/in a very stupid manner.
lit.: never forsee some action that they do stupidly

*snicker* Works for me.

I'm not necessarily translating, I was more looking at some weird/difficult to translate constructions and this was the best example I could come up with. ;D



I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Plumps

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2015, 04:21:09 am »
I'm not necessarily translating, I was more looking at some weird/difficult to translate constructions and this was the best example I could come up with. ;D

Keep ’em coming ;D We’re here for the challenge! :P

Quote
Nì’awve, ngeyä tìtätxaw atxkxene ke lamu hapxì mengeyä tìftxulì’uyä/tìpängkxoä, ke mengeyä tìmllteyä, ha oe san zene sìk kekem ke sivi ke'ukem.
muve, fko zene livu pìrate/payrìt(?) fte sivar korenit fìrateyä, ulte ke lu nga.
pxeyve ... koren lu (nì'ul) na sìfyawìntxu to horen angay.
Ziva’u nìprrte’ ne_Black Pearl, ma ’Eve Turner!

Sìoeyktìng:
- the genitive case after u and o is just
- concerning the underlined bit: my gut tells me to repeat the whole phrase ke lamu hapxì mengeyä tìmllteyä. For me this has something of the parallel structure we have in constructs like Lekin lu tìtxur, lu tìtstew. “Strength and courage are necessary.”
- ‘air quoting’ what Miss Turner said … it doesn’t feel right.
- “do nothing” is kekem ke si, ‹iv› because of modal construct.
- ‹iv› in sar because of fte, T ending on koren because of sar
- “is more a guideline than a rule” … that’s a good one! :) This is a meaning of English “more” that Na’vi’s nì’ul doesn’t cover, I think. German does this with a little filler „eher“ („Es sind eher Richtlinien als Regeln“) … very hard to translate.

I like it a lot that you challenge yourself to translate whatever you like no matter how ‘difficult’ it seems at first. Often it gets easier when one breaks it down to the core meaning. ;)

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2015, 07:30:32 am »
Sìoeyktìng:
- the genitive case after u and o is just
:-[

- concerning the underlined bit: my gut tells me to repeat the whole phrase ke lamu hapxì mengeyä tìmllteyä. For me this has something of the parallel structure we have in constructs like Lekin lu tìtxur, lu tìtstew. “Strength and courage are necessary.”
Is there a word for "nor" anyway? *goes hunting*

- ‘air quoting’ what Miss Turner said … it doesn’t feel right.
"...nor our agreement so I must do nothing."
"...nor out agreement so I 'must' do nothing."

The first one seems to be like the pirate code dictates that he must not do anything.  Whereas the second one is more like, "You're telling me I have must do something, but I 'must' do nothing.  I don't have to do anything to help you."  Really it's all about how he says it, but we're on a forum and don't have that luxury.

I like it a lot that you challenge yourself to translate whatever you like no matter how ‘difficult’ it seems at first. Often it gets easier when one breaks it down to the core meaning. ;)[/size][/font]
I still have The Prince of Egypt tucked away on a flask drive. ;)


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2015, 08:42:08 am »
Ulte nga tsun livu law fwa kengaya tutan lu kengay.
This doesn't look correct because of nga + fwa. What is subject? As we say: Oer lu law fwa ..../ Oer tsun livu law fwa ..., it must be:

Ulte ngar(u) tsun livu law fwa kengaya tutan lu kengay, I'd say.

Or maybe we can put sweylu in action?
Sweylu txo ngar livu law fwa kengaya tutan lu kengay.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tanri

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Re: It's the honest ones
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2015, 02:48:20 pm »
"...And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest."[/i]
The number of translations is always equal or higher to the number of people involved :D
I'd go with "Law lu fwa kengaya tute var kengay frakrr", or even "Fkoru mal lu fwa kengaya tute var kengay frakrr", if "mal" covers this kind of trust...
Pivlltxe, perlltxe, parmlltxe...

 

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