Legal Vowel Clusters.

[Swoka Swizaw]

Alright, ma frapo, let's be honest with ourselves about something about the Na'vi language: Na'vi's liberal attitude toward vowel clusters can produce a few annoying ones. (This is the case, at least for me.) Frommer has indicated that certain clusters do NOT work. This changed over the evolution of the language, but not much. Obviously, long vowels (which are still clusters) are illegal, but those clearly don't count for what I am asking...

For the sake of brevity, are there any clusters that you all think should be illegal? Well, maybe not illegal, but flagged as being [highly] irregular - like äa, aä, iì, ìi. (I know some are still used, but do you all think they should be?)

[Eana Unil]

Hm, I have no problem with äa, aä, iì and ìi, I think they sound nice and fine, but I get your point. Though I can't make up my mind on whether to "forbid" those or not. But I guess that many ppl could have "problems" with these clusters, so I think it could be "practical" to "forbid" them.

Frommer has indicated that certain clusters do NOT work.

I must have missed that (or I just don't remember, dunno). Which vowel clusters are forbidden?   Link/topic please, so I can look it up

[Swoka Swizaw]

Hm, I have no problem with äa, aä, iì and ìi, I think they sound nice and fine, but I get your point. Though I can't make up my mind on whether to "forbid" those or not. But I guess that many ppl could have "problems" with these clusters, so I think it could be "practical" to "forbid" them.

Frommer has indicated that certain clusters do NOT work.

I must have missed that (or I just don't remember, dunno). Which vowel clusters are forbidden?   Link/topic please, so I can look it up

I do not remember where I saw it...all I remember is that vrrìn could not have the cluster iì with the <ei>. "Y" has to be used between i and ì. That's all I know.

[Tirea Aean]

The y in seiyi etc is not there because of an "illegal" vowel cluster. There is no such thing because a vowel can be a syllable. There IS a such thing as illegal consonant cluster. The only legal ones start with s, ts, and f, for example.

Of course, orthographically two of the same vowel letter cannot come in a row. That's the onry limitation, and I think it makes sense.

I do not think any sequence of vowels should be forbidden. They are all just fine imo

[Swoka Swizaw]

The y in seiyi etc is not there because of an "illegal" vowel cluster. There is no such thing because a vowel can be a syllable. There IS a such thing as illegal consonant cluster. The only legal ones start with s, ts, and f, for example.

Of course, orthographically two of the same vowel letter cannot come in a row. That's the onry limitation, and I think it makes sense.

I do not think any sequence of vowels should be forbidden. They are all just fine imo

OK...not forbidden. I mean some clusters that come together and you would think should fuse because of their close proximity, or use an epenthetic consonant, like /iì/, /aä/, or /eä/. In one of his sentences, Frommer marks the plural of Omatikaya with a simple /ä/. I'm not sure why he allowed this when I'd think that the /ä/ would fuse with /a/ to make Omatikayä. It's sort of like soaia and soaiä. In theory, soaiaä should have been just fine. NOW, I KNOW THAT NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE A RULE, but consistency is always good.

I'm not questioning Frommer, just venting one of the few issues I have with Na'vi.

[Tirea Aean]

I see what you mean. Quite valid points which I have considered. I forget why exactly he opted for soaiä but not *omatikayä. The community already seems to split iì and ìi with y otherwise. Not sure if this is a rule or not. I've never seen aä or äa split like that. I agree it's a little bit awkward to have those sequences but maybe to some it's natural and not that bad? :-/

[Blue Elf]

So.... this ikran = fìikran is correct? IIRC I asked for this once, but no reply was given AFAIK

[Tirea Aean]

So.... this ikran = fìikran is correct? IIRC I asked for this once, but no reply was given AFAIK

It is indeed correct.

[Swoka Swizaw]

I appreciate the above comments and sum all up by saying that Frommer has not appeared to present ROOTS with what I would call "irrational" clusters. Most of these "irrationals" come about per morphological boundaries. As there were likely long vowel clusters, these "irrationals" probably don't occur often, now, if at all.

[Tirea Aean]

I can agree with that.

[Swoka Swizaw]

I can agree with that.

Thinking about it...what prompted me to write this, I came to recall my small bias against /ä/ and /ì/. I love its usage as CV and CVC, but almost never as VV. Keeping in mind that the Na'vi might, I don't have an easy time pronouncing certain clusters in which /ä/ and /ì/ occur; in a word, I don't find them terribly functional. The cardinal vowels are another story.