Author Topic: Lessons!  (Read 2060 times)

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Offline Skxawng

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Lessons!
« on: December 23, 2009, 08:46:34 pm »
Kaltxì intermediate folks!

I don't claim to be intermediate yet, but I'm starting to get the hang of it after two days of intense study I'd be otherwise unable to do if it weren't the holidays. Information is starting to compile real well, but there is still no direction, no base to start from.

So this topic is for the discussion and devising of a basic Na'vi cirriculum, or order to learn from. Where would/should someone with no 2nd language or idea about learning a 2nd language start? What would be the appropriate order to understanding the language quickly?

So dig down in your memories to when you first learned a language, or when you started learning this one, and think about what would further expedite the process!


all comments appreciated


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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 09:28:54 pm »
I'd actually written up a brief outline of a beginning lesson plan in another thread.  This was in response to someone suggesting you start with a familiar phrase like "I see you", which I suggested was a bad idea.

Online language lessons (Only ones I have recent experience with) seem to mostly be structured similarly.  Each lesson introduces some concept in syntax, along with some small amount of new vocabulary.  A Na'vi lesson plan might be something like this:

Lesson 1: Basic sentences
  Pronunciation
  Basic sentence parts
    Nouns
    Pronouns
    Verbs
 Noun+verb vocabulary along with all pronouns

Note that the lesson starts with the bare basics.  A subject and an action.  Nothing complicating the words.  But the pronunciation section should have some amount of focus on the syllables since parts of the language depend on the syllable structure.  Also, I'd leave oel ngati kameie out of the first lesson for the following reasons: oel ngati kameie.  Three things which elevate the sentence above being a simple subject + action.

Lesson 2 then could focus on sentences with both a subject and an object, and perhaps tense inflections on verbs.  At this point if you really wanted to, you could squeeze in oel ngati kameie with emphasis that the root word there is really kame.

Lesson 3 then could introduce adjective, aspect and adposition.  Keep in mind that to native english speakers, aspect can be an easily misunderstood concept since English does not have anything directly and independently representing aspect.  Just simplifying it down to "hunted vs hunting" without much additional explanation can actually be misleading about what the aspect is.

And so on like that.  Each lesson introduces just a couple bite-sized grammar rules, building off previous lessons, and accompanied with new vocabulary.  Use examples with untaught structure very sparingly or you'll just encourage people to skip around through lessons and make themselves even more confused.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 01:45:30 am »
I'd actually written up a brief outline of a beginning lesson plan in another thread.  This was in response to someone suggesting you start with a familiar phrase like "I see you", which I suggested was a bad idea.

Online language lessons (Only ones I have recent experience with) seem to mostly be structured similarly.  Each lesson introduces some concept in syntax, along with some small amount of new vocabulary.  A Na'vi lesson plan might be something like this:

Lesson 1: Basic sentences
  Pronunciation
  Basic sentence parts
    Nouns
    Pronouns
    Verbs
 Noun+verb vocabulary along with all pronouns

Note that the lesson starts with the bare basics.  A subject and an action.  Nothing complicating the words.  But the pronunciation section should have some amount of focus on the syllables since parts of the language depend on the syllable structure.  Also, I'd leave oel ngati kameie out of the first lesson for the following reasons: oel ngati kameie.  Three things which elevate the sentence above being a simple subject + action.

Lesson 2 then could focus on sentences with both a subject and an object, and perhaps tense inflections on verbs.  At this point if you really wanted to, you could squeeze in oel ngati kameie with emphasis that the root word there is really kame.

Lesson 3 then could introduce adjective, aspect and adposition.  Keep in mind that to native english speakers, aspect can be an easily misunderstood concept since English does not have anything directly and independently representing aspect.  Just simplifying it down to "hunted vs hunting" without much additional explanation can actually be misleading about what the aspect is.

And so on like that.  Each lesson introduces just a couple bite-sized grammar rules, building off previous lessons, and accompanied with new vocabulary.  Use examples with untaught structure very sparingly or you'll just encourage people to skip around through lessons and make themselves even more confused.

Many children are taught interesting stuff when they learn to speak...
1. NO
2. WHY
3. YES

then (in uncertain order)...

*. I love you
*. Mine
*. I want
*. I need
*. I have
*. Mommy
*. Bottle
*. Daddy
*. Carry me
*. Food names
*. I am hungry
*. I am thirsty
*. I want to go
*. I want to stay
*. I am bored
*. I have to go poddy (various names for this)

larger constructs come later

*. Alphabet
*. Hooked on Phonics (English)

Structured lessons in school till the end of time for English...

*. Vocabulary
*. Reading
*. Writing
*. Grammar, spelling punctuation
私は太った男だ。


Offline Motxokxen

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2009, 02:34:55 am »
something better then the "learn na'vi pocket guide", although quite informative, the level of vocabulary in it is just too high for the layman.
I think i learned more about linguistics then the language itself from that guide. lol.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2009, 03:00:16 am »
Unfortunately, for an English speaker many of the concepts used in Na'vi are foreign, so teaching some amount of linguistics is almost required to teach Na'vi.

And dammit Firefox, Na'vi is NOT a misspelling!
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Yoru

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2009, 12:53:13 pm »
Yoru, nga längu skxawng...

I should have read this topic before. I've just posted a first try about it in another topic. I left the pronunciation out of it, because I don't really know how to explain it - and definitely not in English. So I started with a topic that is - I know - not the most interesting, but a necessary start. In Chapter 2 I wanted people to build their first own sentences by introducing verbs (not tense and aspect, just the simple basics) - a topic were more exercises would be possible. In the first chapter are quite many words to learn - but they can be used for simple texts in a second chapter, because many of them are related to each other.

While in the other topic I only asked for corrections I would ask you here for some opinions about the didactic thoughts behind it.

Here the link:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=234.0

Kiyevame.

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2009, 09:06:46 pm »
Unfortunately, for an English speaker many of the concepts used in Na'vi are foreign, so teaching some amount of linguistics is almost required to teach Na'vi.

And dammit Firefox, Na'vi is NOT a misspelling!

How nerdy am I?

I am teaching my dictionary Na'Vi  .........

OH MY
私は太った男だ。


Offline shiaru

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2009, 11:26:51 pm »
Unfortunately, for an English speaker many of the concepts used in Na'vi are foreign, so teaching some amount of linguistics is almost required to teach Na'vi.

And dammit Firefox, Na'vi is NOT a misspelling!


Add it to your dictionary list like I did, it should fix the problem.

Now I remember that when I learned my second language I was in the need to learn it, so on a purely psychological level, the more one needs to learn something the easier it becomes to learn it. The brain will automatically reject learning any information it deems unnecessary. One way to circumvent this safety feature is to force the brain to believe Na'vi is necessary, say start to write stuff on Na'vi only, like a book of poems or a journal. This will facilitate the learning by a lot.
~Oe lu tanhì taronyu.~

Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2009, 11:39:58 pm »



Add it to your dictionary list like I did, it should fix the problem.

Now I remember that when I learned my second language I was in the need to learn it, so on a purely psychological level, the more one needs to learn something the easier it becomes to learn it. The brain will automatically reject learning any information it deems unnecessary. One way to circumvent this safety feature is to force the brain to believe Na'vi is necessary, say start to write stuff on Na'vi only, like a book of poems or a journal. This will facilitate the learning by a lot.

I agree completely. This is why total immersion is so effective when learning a language. When you're completely surrounded by that language, there is a need and therefore great motivation to learn it. I found this to be true when I went to Italy for a few weeks. Even though I had learned some with Rosetta Stone beforehand, I learned a lot more while in Italy. The more you see and are surrounded by Na'vi, the easier and more quickly you'll learn it.


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

Proud founder of the DeviantART Learn Na'vi group!
http://learnnavi.deviantart.com/

Offline tute nuereime

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 12:24:06 am »
so a good way to practice would be to get a few friends that you see regularly and try to just speak in na'vi. that is try to speak in na'vi with what little we know right now.
kaltxì peng oeru fra’uya niNa'Vi

Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 12:31:59 am »
Exactly, or as tsmukan shiaru pointed out, writing stories, journals, or just random things. Speaking with friends is great, if you can find enough friends that don't think you're a complete nerd for learning Na'vi. Try to speak it as much as possible, especially while alone.


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

Proud founder of the DeviantART Learn Na'vi group!
http://learnnavi.deviantart.com/

Offline tute nuereime

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 12:36:39 am »
so far i've got one who doesn't think i have gone off the deep end
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Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 12:43:47 am »
I've got plenty, but they're all on here.


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

Proud founder of the DeviantART Learn Na'vi group!
http://learnnavi.deviantart.com/

Offline tute nuereime

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 12:56:24 am »
you could check the one introductions topic to see if anyone lives near you
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Offline shiaru

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 10:03:08 am »
The map has been updated again so more people could be in your vicinity.
~Oe lu tanhì taronyu.~

Offline Eywa ngahu

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 10:35:31 am »
btw. oeri ma aysmukán si aysmuké, a good way to get the basis of Na'Vi is to use the regular wikipedia and just take a couple of subjects out for training each day (am atm. at day 3. at learning Na'Vi, but in this way i have managed to get a good/acceptable basic understanding of the Na'Vi language :) ).
even though it does not follow the normal lines of learning a new language (you would usually start with verbs after the basic pronouns), Na'Vi has a different build up, and as such it is actually logical to begin the way the wiki does :) (at least i think i so ^^).

but anyway, here is the regular link to the wiki-parts I am using as a supplement to all of your great excersises etc. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%27vi_language

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2010, 11:52:18 am »
I have been referencing the wikipedia article a lot too.  You should definitely read the talk page as well though, a lot of it is conjecture (very very knowledgeable conjecture. I tried to argue something and was easily shot down).  The main editor kwami (sp?) has also been in touch with Dr. Frommer it seems, so he has put some of his correspondence in there.

The real problem is it does not separate guesses (mind you very good guesses) from things that we have been told directly and it does not tell you where many of the example sentences come from.

But, it is the most complete grammar out there, so I always keep it open in one tab. :D

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Eywa ngahu

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2010, 12:20:41 pm »
I also have it on tab ;)
hmmm perhaps it is not a real problem that we should be able to guess a bit, the main part of the sentence structure is based on the grammatic anyway, and it might just encourage further creativity among the speakers (who knows in which dierctions Frommer wants the language to move in :)) to have a bit of freedom :D.
But until we know more, we can always use the sentences known to be correct as guidelines for our own ^^

Eywa ngahu ^^

Offline Tsatu

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2010, 01:55:37 pm »
I am so happy to see that I haven't totally lost my mind. I'm sure my wife thinks I left my brain in the theatre. (The third or fourth time seeing Avatar) I'm completely stoked that someone has taken the initiative to put a primer together. I think I have printed out about everything that seemed useful or remotely helpful. It sounds as if frapo is on the same page.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Lessons!
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 02:08:27 pm »
I just want to remind people that I'm doing the opposite thing. I'm making a grammar document with everything in it (although work has been slowed by dictionary stuff, recently). I hope that a document that is aimed at linguists will help in the creation of a much simpler document for non-linguists. I may make it more confusing, however, but I'm trying.

I think the primer is a good idea, and that we should keep working on the worksheets we have for now, as well. People aren't starting to learn Na'vi in one place - they go with scattered information, everywhere, sort of like a real language. The more, the more accurate, the better.

 

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