More clarification on double/triple negatives?

Started by Irtaviš Ačankif, November 15, 2011, 07:21:01 PM

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Irtaviš Ačankif

AFAIK Na'vi uses double negatives:

Kawkrr oe ke yom teylu!

As I understand it, Na'vi (like Spanish and French), doesn't have double negatives in the true sense of the word, but instead uses the construction "kawkrr...ke" to mean "never." My question is, what happens when I do this:

Kawkrr kea ke yom teylu!

As I understand it, "kawkrr...ke" resolves into English "never":
   Never kea ke yom teylu!
and then translate the rest of it:
   Never does nobody eat teylu!
which then just becomes "Anybody can eat teylu."

The reason why I was confused was because something similar happens in Spanish, and my Spanish teacher says that whenever a word like "never" shows up, odd numbers of negatives mean positive and even numbers mean negative, unlike English. Is that true for Na'vi? Or is it that no matter how many negatives you pile in a sentence, it never ever resolves to a positive?
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Seze Mune

I wouldn't be an expert in Na'vi, but I do know that there are some people who think 'irregardless' is a real word.  Most people use it to mean 'regardless', and attach the ir- prefix out of ignorance, not knowing they are negating their intended meaning.  It is a sort of double negative.  People who are truly conscious of their word use do not use that word.

Irtaviš Ačankif

It is a real word in the fact that it is in a dictionary and people use it, but it is semantically contradictory to its intended meaning.

That's why I say that even colloquial English doesn't have double negatives the way Na'vi has it. Even the most isolated dialect speaker wouldn't tell you that "regardless" is wrong and "irregardless" is correct, or that "ain't nothing" is more correct than "ain't anything." English double negatives are caused by carelessness, NOT some dialectal rule.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Seze Mune

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on November 15, 2011, 09:17:04 PM
It is a real word in the fact that it is in a dictionary and people use it, but it is semantically contradictory to its intended meaning.

That's why I say that even colloquial English doesn't have double negatives the way Na'vi has it. Even the most isolated dialect speaker wouldn't tell you that "regardless" is wrong and "irregardless" is correct, or that "ain't nothing" is more correct than "ain't anything." English double negatives are caused by carelessness, NOT some dialectal rule.

And you put that so mildly, compared to what I would say about it.  HRH!   ;D

Irtaviš Ačankif

In fact AFAIK all languages that use double negatives don't actually do so, they just use pairs like "kawkrr...ke" to convey meaning. The word "Kawkrr" to a real Na'vi on Pandora would sound like half a word.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Blue Elf

Na'vi can even use multiple negation and it always mean negation (math rule that two negations returns what was on the input side really doesn't work here), similar to slavic languages. So, some examples:

Kawkrr oel ke yom teyluti. -> I newer eat teylu. (yom is vtr, don't forget)
Kawkrr oel ke yom kea teyluti -> I never eat any teylu. (attributive adjective must be next to noun which modifies). Literally it mean: "I never eat no teylu!", what is not correct in English, but has perfect sense in other languages, which use multiple negation.
Kawkrr kawtul ke yom teyluti. -> Hmm, here I'm not sure how to say correctly in English, probably "Nobody eat teylu at any time", meaning is "Nobody never eat teylu"
Kawkrr kawtul ke yom kea teyluti. -> Nobody never eat any teylu.
All these sentences are negative, no matter how many "ke" is used.

Kawkrr is normal word and you can it use on it own without paired ke:
- Srake ngal tsole'a tsat srekrr?
- Kawkrr.
But you are right that it is used mostly with negated verb.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Irtaviš Ačankif

However, in languages such as French (c.f. ne...pas) and Spanish, three negatives make a positive.  :-\

And I think that Kawkrr oel ke yom kea teyluti. is wrong and Kawkrr oel yom kea teyluti. should be correct since it does use a double negative "kawkrr...kea". The previous sentence LITERALLY would mean "I never don't eat no teylu!" and not "I never eat no teylu!"
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Sireayä mokri

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on November 16, 2011, 08:36:01 AM
However, in languages such as French (c.f. ne...pas) and Spanish, three negatives make a positive.  :-\

Better look at the way it's used Slavic languages: you can have as many negatives in a sentence as you want and it will always stay negative.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Tanri

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on November 16, 2011, 08:36:01 AM
However, in languages such as French (c.f. ne...pas) and Spanish, three negatives make a positive.  :-\
And I think that Kawkrr oel ke yom kea teyluti. is wrong and Kawkrr oel yom kea teyluti. should be correct since it does use a double negative "kawkrr...kea". The previous sentence LITERALLY would mean "I never don't eat no teylu!" and not "I never eat no teylu!"
I agree with Blu Elf and Sireayä mokri, in Na'vi, like in slavic languages, isn't any limit for number of negatives in sentence. The result is always negative.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Kamean

QuoteHowever, in languages such as French (c.f. ne...pas) and Spanish, three negatives make a positive.
Interesting. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Irtaviš Ačankif

in Spanish the first two negatives make a negative and the third one negates it
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Plumps

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on November 16, 2011, 08:36:01 AM
And I think that Kawkrr oel ke yom kea teyluti. is wrong and Kawkrr oel yom kea teyluti. should be correct since it does use a double negative "kawkrr...kea". The previous sentence LITERALLY would mean "I never don't eat no teylu!" and not "I never eat no teylu!"

No, the verb has to be negated as well ;) cf. Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi, p. 45.
So, the pair is kawkrr ... ke and not *kawkrr ... kea, although it can be used for emphasis (kawkrr ... ke ... kea), at least that's how I would use it.


Irtaviš Ačankif

By the way, why isn't there a word for "anybody" in Na'vi?
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

wm.annis

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on November 16, 2011, 11:11:28 AM
By the way, why isn't there a word for "anybody" in Na'vi?

How big a lecture on linguistics do you want?  ;)

The short answer is that in English "anybody" is just the same word as "somebody" which we use in negated sentences and questions.  Some languages do this, some do not.  Na'vi doesn't need "anybody" or any of the "any-" forms.  It has other tools to say the same things.

I agree with the posters who say that Na'vi negation acts like negation in the Slavic languages.

Irtaviš Ačankif

So how would you say:

"Anybody can eat teylu!"

in Na'vi?
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Kamean

Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Irtaviš Ačankif

Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Kamean

Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Irtaviš Ačankif

Tse...peu lu ayskxawng? Apxa, nawm, fu tsawl?  :-\

EDIT: Oe leru taronyu! Oeru lu o764 ayfostì!
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Kamean

Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.