Author Topic: Our Dictionary  (Read 90299 times)

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #140 on: January 07, 2010, 04:14:42 pm »
Again, a huge thanks! :)

Here's what I noticed (Version: V.011)

IPA for fngabsutxwll needs the ejective (not x)
IPA for fayvrrtep needs the /p/ instead of the glottal stop
IPA for kllkxem needs the ejective
IPA for kxll needs the ejective (not x)
IPA for nguway needs a /j/ (not y)
in IPA for pxuntil is a syllable marker before the /p/
explanation of täftxuyu needs täftxu (not *tæftxu)
IPA for tsawlapxangrr needs the special character for the trilled r (not rr)
is telem cord or chord? (compare telem - cord with waytelem - song chord)
IPA for *win needs /i/

I don't know why the IPA dominated this time... :P

Hope that helps in taking that step to perfection... :)

Offline Numeyu Aftxavang

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #141 on: January 08, 2010, 06:55:30 am »
Speculation ahead, you've been forewarned:
I've been thinking for a while about the word "mokri". The conventional wisdom seems to be that mokri translates into voice. This would make the correct (reverse) translation to tree of voices be utral aymokriyä, which also seems to be widely accepted as proper.
In the movie, Neytiri says "utral aymokri", no genitive. This leads me to believe that the -ri in mokri is actually the topical suffix, as having a topical noun removes the need for the genitive case (I.E oeri ontu). If this is true, voice should be mok.

Opinions?
Eywa ngahu ma smuk.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 07:17:57 am by Numeyu Aftxavang »
"The language is a pain, but I figure it's like field-stripping a weapon- just repitition, repitition, repitition"

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2010, 07:23:59 am »
Quote
Neytiri says "utral aymokri", no genitive.

That I heard too. But for what reason she should use a topic there? As far as I remember, her sentence was like "We call these trees utral aymokri." or something like that. In a sentence like that "utral aymokri" should rather be accusative or absolutive, but not topical, and the "aymokri" is clearly the attribute to "utral", so it should be genitive.

I think, in names, there work other rules than in normal sentences. E. g. the rider of the Last Shadow also is called "toruk makto". But "makto" is just the verb "to ride", so "rider" should be "maktoyu". And "toruk" is also no genitive, as you may exspect from "rider OF the leonopteryx" or "leonopterix's rider". In any case, the "toruk" gives a further information about the "rider", it means: it is an attribute ... and attributive nouns should have genitive cause or something like that. So "toruk makto" also doesnt seem to follow normal rules.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 07:34:38 am by Harìghawnu »

Offline Numeyu Aftxavang

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #143 on: January 08, 2010, 07:43:08 am »
This is an interesting possibility. I've toyed with the idea that well-known phrases (like Utral aymokri), being known by everyone, won't necessarily follow conventional rules because you can understand what is being said anyway. In fact, this seems like something that would occur in a natural, non-constructed language- over time, people just start omitting the syntactic affixes that make pronouncing the word less fluid, because that person spoken to would still understand.
I couldn't find any other examples(because I fail at noticing the obvious), so I abandoned this in favor of a theory more in line with the rules we know to be correct, but if you can find more examples, it would make the "common phrase" theory more valid.
"The language is a pain, but I figure it's like field-stripping a weapon- just repitition, repitition, repitition"

Offline Doolio

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #144 on: January 08, 2010, 07:51:18 am »
yes, it is, maybe just a phrase that got 'shaped during time', similar to, say "hornburg" in LOTR...
...taj rad...

Offline Fyawìntxu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2010, 11:10:15 am »
   kaltxì ma smutku!

   I'm listening to it again and again, I reduced the speed...

   It actually sounds like Neytiri says "utralya mokri", or "utral yamokri" ... nothing sounds like "ay" in it, but "ya" when she talks.

   Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame.

Fyawìntxu
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:20:40 am by Taronyu »
Eywa ayngahu ma smuk!

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #146 on: January 08, 2010, 11:18:25 am »
Your are right. Besides "utral" and "mokri" there is audible just an [a]-sound, like "utral a mokri". But this doesn't seem to fit to the grammar we know even more, because "aymokri" at least would mean "voices" (plural of mokri). But you are right: the "y" in "ay" is nearly inaudible. Another riddle.


Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #147 on: January 08, 2010, 11:21:13 am »
  kaltxì ma smutku!

   I'm listening to it again and again, I reduced the speed...

   It actually sounds like Neytiri says "utralya mokri", or "utral yamokri" ... nothing sounds like "ay" in it, but "ya" when she talks.

   Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame.

Fyawìntxu

Sorry dude, no copywrited material on the site.

This is an interesting riddle, I agree. FROMMERRRRRR

Offline Fyawìntxu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #148 on: January 08, 2010, 12:07:16 pm »
   kaltxì ma smutku!

Sorry dude, no copywrited material on the site.

   I know  :'( trying to stop, but always wanna leave a chance to my community to get the exact meaning of my words... so I think it won't be the last time...

or...
   I should make an announcement for everybody to be here at the same time, post the file  :o and then remove it whithin 5min  ::)

   Kidding... hopefully Dr Frommer will come around soon and help us, so we don't have to deal only with the few existing records (movie, interview...games?...).

   Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame.

Fyawìntxu
Eywa ayngahu ma smuk!

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #149 on: January 08, 2010, 12:09:38 pm »
Heh. Hopefully, you won't do it again, it's just making extra work for us. I know how annoying it is, though, believe me.

Offline Numeyu Aftxavang

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2010, 05:47:34 am »
After watching the movie again and digging through the wikipedia article, I believe I have found the answer.
Utraya Mokri (yes, that's actually what Neytiri says) is one of thirty or so words Cameron thought of before he asked Frommer to put the language together http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%27vi_language#Original_vocabulary and therefore not subject to Na'vi's rules. Toruk Makto is in the same category, as well as Vitraya Ramunong (tree of souls) atokirina and Iknimaya.
Pretty much every word that doesn't seem to fit the grammatical rules seems to be due to this. Incidentally, Cameron also came up with tsaheylu (originally shahaylu), which would explain the discord between the word's appearance in the script and it's pronounciation- Cameron didn't have the Na'vi phonology to consult when thinking of it.

Looks like we have a bunch of funky words to compensate for. I think we should treat them like Ur-tongue words, kind of like adding latin expressions to an english sentence.

Eywa ngahu ma aysmuk.
"The language is a pain, but I figure it's like field-stripping a weapon- just repitition, repitition, repitition"

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2010, 06:03:05 am »

Very informative post!
Many thanks, that you pointed us to Cameron's Avatar-script accessable via Wikipedia now.
That explains a lot.
Even the strange "te - particle used in full names".

Thanks again!

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2010, 08:46:47 am »
Updated dictionary to version 6. Added all Cameronian words. THANK YOU!

Offline wm.annis

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2010, 10:19:06 am »
Looks like we have a bunch of funky words to compensate for. I think we should treat them like Ur-tongue words, kind of like adding latin expressions to an english sentence.

That's an excellent approach.

It's also fascinating that you should pick it.  Esperantists use a phrase from our only trace of the earliest stages of Esperanto in the same way.  The phrase jam temp' está is used for "it's time!"

I'd say "there's nothing new under the sun" in Na'vi, if we had a word for "under" or "new".
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kiliyä

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2010, 08:19:26 pm »
Esperantists use a phrase from our only trace of the earliest stages of Esperanto in the same way.  The phrase jam temp' está is used for "it's time!"
Huh.  Never heard of it and I've been speaking Esperanto for a while now.
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #155 on: January 09, 2010, 09:37:17 pm »
Hey guys. Night Raider was kind enough to undertake the massive project of translating my dictionary into Russian. I've formatted it (not without some loss, unfortunately, like the lack of bold text and stuff), and now we have a Russian-Na'vi dictionary. Hooray!

For Those Of You Who Are Russian

Offline Hashe

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #156 on: January 10, 2010, 05:38:58 am »
Can you lay out to me the source file to make the translator?

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2010, 04:54:38 pm »
Currently at version 6.005. Small changes, but some significant. See change-log for details.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2010, 06:32:35 pm »
You banished "sìre" (< tìrey) from the dictionary, but in the dictionary and the inflections doc you have the example "Oe–l sìre–t tslam. I understand life." for the accusative marker. 
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2010, 06:33:59 pm »
You banished "sìre" (< tìrey) from the dictionary, but in the dictionary and the inflections doc you have the example "Oe–l sìre–t tslam. I understand life." for the accusative marker. 

Thank you for noticing, William. Editing now.

 

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