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Offline roger

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #200 on: January 17, 2010, 07:01:08 pm »
Yes, "toktor" as in a title for a PhD is probably right.

Comments on your latest (?) edition:

I'm tempted to back derivation too, but with Frommer, sometimes the long form is basic, and the short form derived, so us pulling out the shortest element may be misleading. For example, nìltsan is not derived from *ltsan, but a contraction of *nì-sìltsan. I have a feeling a lot of Na'vi words are like that, and there may be no *la for 'other', *kll for 'ground', etc.

'angstìkä: still wondering why you don't give the SG variant of titanothere, esp. since the game versiom might be genitive. (I haven't seen it.)

Ateyitan: if we can get the script, it sounds like this might've been changed to a more regular Ateyo'itan. At least, I can hear the "o" in the film.

atokirina': "very pure spirits" isn't a definition, but Neytiri's description

fpxafaw: there's another word for medusa, lonataya. I wonder if one is spurious, or if they are diff. species.

I told you lu was also an existential verb. Now I'm not so sure: it might really just be a copula. You shouldn't listen to me!

Illegal *malmoks is still in there.

S.o. pointed out that neto was a compound. I suspect that mìso is based on this same *to (which I suspect is the same morpheme as "than"), since causes lenition. [ah, I see you have it under *to, just not under mìso]

piyähem: this is the IMM.FUT of pähem "arrive" (as in, "they will be here soon"). Easy to miss the diacritic in the script.

ralpeng is an easy etymology

-ru: 3PRO variant -r and post-C variant -u.

san: I don't know if this "works w sìk". In the only attestation I have it's on its own. I assume san is used for "I said san I want to" and sìk is for "I want to sìk I said", but that's just a guess.

sìlronsem: no etym. on 'good' + 'mind'?

Silwanin: that's Neytiri's sister, AFAIK the one who was killed.

tam tam: I hear "tam tan", but you're probably right.

tawtute: really, "human". "Sky person" is just a calque.

tìlor "beauty" is attested in one of the animal names.

tsat: odd to have just this one acc PN form listed.

tskalep: I assumet it's cognate w tsko.

tsnì: I assume there's a tsa contracted in there

win: you have it marked an a noun, trans. as a verb, but in the songs it functions as an adj.

Vitraya: Frommer corrected to ayvitrayä in the film (cf. utraya mokri)

Stress can be added to several more words from Jake's script. Unfortunately, the actors' pronunciations are all over the place, so the film itself isn't good evidence.

Illegal words: "Beyral" is a name in the script, female if I remember right.

Inflections: you're missing formal <uy>.

-ti: you say 'noun',  but give a PN. It's found on both.

si: not always postpositional. We also get seiyi ireiyo.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 07:15:02 pm by roger »

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #201 on: January 17, 2010, 07:53:30 pm »
I'm tempted to back derivation too, but with Frommer, sometimes the long form is basic, and the short form derived, so us pulling out the shortest element may be misleading. For example, nìltsan is not derived from *ltsan, but a contraction of *nì-sìltsan. I have a feeling a lot of Na'vi words are like that, and there may be no *la for 'other', *kll for 'ground', etc.
Annoying, ain't it?

'angstìkä: still wondering why you don't give the SG variant of titanothere, esp. since the game versiom might be genitive. (I haven't seen it.)
Because, unless my book has a misprint, there isn't one. What page you looking at, roj?

Ateyitan: if we can get the script, it sounds like this might've been changed to a more regular Ateyo'itan. At least, I can hear the "o" in the film.
Those words were taken from the 2007 script. We could sure use the new one.

atokirina': "very pure spirits" isn't a definition, but Neytiri's description
Fine fine fine. Removed.

fpxafaw: there's another word for medusa, lonataya. I wonder if one is spurious, or if they are diff. species.
Weird, huh? Welcome the the guide versus the guide list.

I told you lu was also an existential verb. Now I'm not so sure: it might really just be a copula. You shouldn't listen to me!
I wasn't. I was listening to wm.annis and Omängum Fra'uti as well.

Illegal *malmoks is still in there.
Check again.

S.o. pointed out that neto was a compound. I suspect that mìso is based on this same *to (which I suspect is the same morpheme as "than"), since causes lenition. [ah, I see you have it under *to, just not under mìso]
Under both, now.

piyähem: this is the IMM.FUT of pähem "arrive" (as in, "they will be here soon"). Easy to miss the diacritic in the script.
Thanks. I did miss that.

ralpeng is an easy etymology.
Thanks. It is.

-ru: 3PRO variant -r and post-C variant -u.

san: I don't know if this "works w sìk". In the only attestation I have it's on its own. I assume san is used for "I said san I want to" and sìk is for "I want to sìk I said", but that's just a guess.
Fixed.

sìlronsem: no etym. on 'good' + 'mind'?
Added.

Silwanin: that's Neytiri's sister, AFAIK the one who was killed.
Fixed.

tam tam: I hear "tam tan", but you're probably right.
Of course, it could just be from tam.

tawtute: really, "human". "Sky person" is just a calque.
Fixed.

tìlor "beauty" is attested in one of the animal names.
Added.

tsat: odd to have just this one acc PN form listed.
Removed.

tskalep: I assumet it's cognate w tsko.
But they are two.

tsnì: I assume there's a tsa contracted in there
But I'm not willing to let that fly, yet. Why would there be a nì?

win: you have it marked an a noun, trans. as a verb, but in the songs it functions as an adj.
You're right.

Vitraya: Frommer corrected to ayvitrayä in the film (cf. utraya mokri)
Waiting for script for that. Grace can't pronounce.

Stress can be added to several more words from Jake's script. Unfortunately, the actors' pronunciations are all over the place, so the film itself isn't good evidence.
No, I'm pretty sure I got every one.

Illegal words: "Beyral" is a name in the script, female if I remember right.
Might be. Edited.

Inflections: you're missing formal <uy>.
And some others. Are we positive about <uy>?

-ti: you say 'noun',  but give a PN. It's found on both.
Fixed.

si: not always postpositional. We also get seiyi ireiyo.
Changed.

Thanks again Roger. Ridiculous how close you're reading this thing. :)

Offline wm.annis

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #202 on: January 17, 2010, 08:30:37 pm »
I told you lu was also an existential verb. Now I'm not so sure: it might really just be a copula. You shouldn't listen to me!
I wasn't. I was listening to wm.annis and Omängum Fra'uti as well.

And Paul Frommer!  From his email to Prrton: Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun ... I didn't think that there was anyone who ....
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Offline roger

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #203 on: January 18, 2010, 01:24:28 am »
And Paul Frommer!  From his email to Prrton: Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun ... I didn't think that there was anyone who ....
Ah yes, silly me. That's what changed my mind before it went blank.

Offline roger

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #204 on: January 18, 2010, 03:27:25 am »
In the German dub, the bond is also tsaheylu, so I'm pretty confident the SG just got that vowel wrong.

Offline roger

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #205 on: January 18, 2010, 05:24:17 am »
"Ma Eytukan, ngati 'eko!" - clearly a verb

Offline Mirri

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #206 on: January 18, 2010, 08:59:47 am »
I went through the dictionary again and compiled a new and updated jMemorize list based on it, and ran into the following things:

The fyawìntxu definition is wrong, fya should be 'way' not 'how'. Copy-paste error, most likely.

What's the connection between munge and zamunge? They both mean 'bring', but in different ways I imagine, which isn't well explained. Possible compound of za'u and munge?

The words pefya, pelun, tupe, tsengpe, should mention their allomorphs. Might also want to add the literal translation of all these (this way, this place, etc.)

There's probably some subtle linguistic thing I'm not getting, but why isn't sat in the dictionary?

The plural of stone ayskxe shouldn't have its own entry. We know how to make plurals ;)

ftxavang should be 'passionate' (adj), not 'passion' (noun)

Shouldn't the kame description say it's in the spiritual sense?

Do you want to hazard a guess at the etymology of ketuwong and kewong? Ke-tu-wo-ng Not-person-?-inclusive

Is kurakx 'drive out' in the sense of dispel, chase away? Might add that to the definition

Lahe might need some clarification, if possible. Other (thing, person, abstract concept)?

Since nì'it is 'a small amount (abstract)', then 'it should probably say 'a small amount (physical)'

teswotìng definition mentions the derivation from tìng, but not from sacred?

tìlor should be noted as being non-human beauty, similar to lor

Per the discussion above, toktor should probably have added 'scientist' to the definition, or replace it entirely. Grace and her team took samples of plants, made schools, etc.

Missing words: tsakem, tsakrr, tsatu

Tsko swizaw, definition should probably be 'bow and arrow', not 'arrows'.

What's the etymology of tskxekeng (training, exercise)? tskxe is rock. Must be some connection. Training might be rock-hardening or something.

Might need some elaboration on txele and tsranten to explain the difference. I can only find one English dictionary definition of 'matter' as a verb.

Might want to add 'have to' to the definition of zene, just for clarification
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #207 on: January 18, 2010, 09:52:31 am »
There's probably some subtle linguistic thing I'm not getting, but why isn't sat in the dictionary?

It's just lenited tsat.

Quote
ftxavang should be 'passionate' (adj), not 'passion' (noun)

Why?  At the moment we have no particular reason to believe nouns cannot be turned into adverbs.
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Offline Mirri

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #208 on: January 18, 2010, 10:03:27 am »
In email (before the semester started), Frommer has said that he does see a future in which other people add to Na'vi's vocabulary, but it has to be handled by people who know how the language works.  At the moment, that's only Frommer.  We have to cultivate patience.

If Frommer wanted us to have patience, he would have given us a word for it ;)


He did. mawey and tam tam. Granted, they mean calm.


I was thinking tìpey amawey. Or more likely, fpak nguway  :D
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Mirri

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #209 on: January 18, 2010, 10:06:05 am »
There's probably some subtle linguistic thing I'm not getting, but why isn't sat in the dictionary?

It's just lenited tsat.

Quote
ftxavang should be 'passionate' (adj), not 'passion' (noun)

Why?  At the moment we have no particular reason to believe nouns cannot be turned into adverbs.

That's true, but I was referring mostly to the English definition. 'Passion' is not an adj. So either it has to be changed to 'passionate', or changed to a noun. Or even better, list both possibilities.
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #210 on: January 18, 2010, 01:45:43 pm »
Quote
That's true, but I was referring mostly to the English definition. 'Passion' is not an adj. So either it has to be changed to 'passionate', or changed to a noun. Or even better, list both possibilities.

Isn't ftxavang coming from nìftxavang which the adverb passionately, so in removing the nì it could either the adjective passionate or the noun passion.
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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #211 on: January 18, 2010, 02:02:12 pm »
The fyawìntxu definition is wrong, fya should be 'way' not 'how'. Copy-paste error, most likely.
Fixed.

What's the connection between munge and zamunge? They both mean 'bring', but in different ways I imagine, which isn't well explained. Possible compound of za'u and munge?
We don't know. Listed that way in the guide. Derivation noted.

The words pefya, pelun, tupe, tsengpe, should mention their allomorphs. Might also want to add the literal translation of all these (this way, this place, etc.)
I believe I fixed the allomorphs. Not for tupe or tsengpe, though, can't be bothered doing that for words that aren't lenited unless you guys want to get on my case about it. Figured their derivations were obvious.

There's probably some subtle linguistic thing I'm not getting, but why isn't sat in the dictionary?
Dealt with.

The plural of stone ayskxe shouldn't have its own entry. We know how to make plurals ;)
It's there for the stress, which is different.

ftxavang should be 'passionate' (adj), not 'passion' (noun)
Fixed.

Shouldn't the kame description say it's in the spiritual sense?
It works as both.

Do you want to hazard a guess at the etymology of ketuwong and kewong? Ke-tu-wo-ng Not-person-?-inclusive
I figured deriving *wong was enough.

Is kurakx 'drive out' in the sense of dispel, chase away? Might add that to the definition
Beats me, man. Guide. Not giving synonyms for everything.

Lahe might need some clarification, if possible. Other (thing, person, abstract concept)?
We don't know. I assume it's a deferential form, though.

Since nì'it is 'a small amount (abstract)', then 'it should probably say 'a small amount (physical)'
I'd rather give the definition in the guide. One doesn't exclude the other.

teswotìng definition mentions the derivation from tìng, but not from sacred?
No, because we're not sure what's being given. It was too much of a stretch.

tìlor should be noted as being non-human beauty, similar to lor
We're not sure about that.

Per the discussion above, toktor should probably have added 'scientist' to the definition, or replace it entirely. Grace and her team took samples of plants, made schools, etc.
Again, SG definition, currently. We don't know if it could mean medical as well.

Missing words: tsakem, tsakrr, tsatu
Where are these words attested?

Tsko swizaw, definition should probably be 'bow and arrow', not 'arrows'.
I'm going off what I saw in the guide.

What's the etymology of tskxekeng (training, exercise)? tskxe is rock. Must be some connection. Training might be rock-hardening or something.
Stating this is making an assumption without having keng, I think. Same way zawng doesn't come from *za.

Might need some elaboration on txele and tsranten to explain the difference. I can only find one English dictionary definition of 'matter' as a verb.

That we might. We need Frommer for that, though.

Might want to add 'have to' to the definition of zene, just for clarification
For all we know, it could mean must as in the noun in some cases...

Sorry for being a bit harsh with these.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #212 on: January 18, 2010, 03:46:14 pm »
Tsu'tey uses tsakem in the Ikran-bonding/choosing scene. (see the third post).
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Offline Mirri

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #213 on: January 18, 2010, 04:18:00 pm »

The words pefya, pelun, tupe, tsengpe, should mention their allomorphs. Might also want to add the literal translation of all these (this way, this place, etc.)
I believe I fixed the allomorphs. Not for tupe or tsengpe, though, can't be bothered doing that for words that aren't lenited unless you guys want to get on my case about it. Figured their derivations were obvious.
I'd like to have it there, for one :)


Missing words: tsakem, tsakrr, tsatu
Where are these words attested?

Hmm, well, I've seen it in Karyu's Navi pocket guide, they're on wikipedia and wiktionary, aaand you're using them as examples in your derivation of tsa- ;)
Of course I don't know the original source, but it seems there's a general trend that tsa- is a valid prefix for these three since it works on the others (tsa'u, tsatseng).


Sorry for being a bit harsh with these.

That's fine, you know more about the actual sources of this stuff than I do. Just seeking clarification :)


Just an idea, maybe you could mention in the definitions all the affixes and words that we know trigger lenition. It's one of those things that are difficult to figure out.
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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #214 on: January 18, 2010, 04:18:54 pm »
I'm pretty sure when Tsu'tey says "tsakem" he's meaning "that action" (tsa+kem*).  This would give more support to Taronyu's derivation of "kem" for "action."
Similarly, the other words: Tsakrr and tsatu would seem to be "that time" and "that person" respectively, simply using "tsa" stuck onto a noun to mean "that."

In this regard, I don't think it'd be completely necessary for him to put them into the dictionary, as many words can be formed by putting Fì or Tsa in front of a noun.


Just an idea, maybe you could mention in the definitions all the affixes and words that we know trigger lenition. It's one of those things that are difficult to figure out.


I'm pretty sure he already does this.  He denotes leniting morpheme boundaries in the dictionary with '+'
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 04:22:30 pm by Alìm Tsamsiyu »
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Offline roger

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #215 on: January 18, 2010, 06:23:29 pm »
What's the connection between munge and zamunge? They both mean 'bring', but in different ways I imagine, which isn't well explained. Possible compound of za'u and munge?
We don't know. Listed that way in the guide. Derivation noted.
Munge means 'to take' or 'to bring'—as I see it, basically 'to carry', tho perhaps without being so specific. Za apparently restricts it to 'bring' ("come carrying"). I would expect a corresponding word *kämunge 'to take'. This is really common in languages. I suspect that another word like this is za'ärìp 'to pull'; za- would seem to mean 'toward the speaker', presumably derived from za'u 'to come'. It's possible we even have an andative/venitive distinction in Na'vi, though there might be only a few fixed words instead.

ftxavang should be 'passionate' (adj), not 'passion' (noun)
Fixed.
We can't know that. Nìayoeng means "like us"; that doesn't mean that "us" is an adjective. Nì- derives adverbs, but apparently not just from adjectives. So it could be either "passionate-ly" or "with passion". Cf. Esperanto, where a word of any part of speech can be made an adverb by changing its suffix to -e.

Lahe might need some clarification, if possible. Other (thing, person, abstract concept)?
We don't know. I assume it's a deferential form, though.
Frommer's on record that for the formal language, he created an infix and some pronouns. Might've forgotten this one, but I suspect that the root is simply lahe, and that this is shortened to la- in some derivations, the way za'u appears to be shortened to za-.

Offline roger

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #216 on: January 19, 2010, 01:53:13 am »
Hey, you think we might get trray "tomorrow" to go along with trram "yesterday"?

Just thinking out loud.

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #217 on: January 19, 2010, 07:27:09 am »
<ay> and <am> are verb infixes, trr is a noun so I'm inclined to go with no. Also, they'd attach before the vowel (rr).
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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #218 on: January 19, 2010, 07:48:33 am »
Hey, you think we might get trray "tomorrow" to go along with trram "yesterday"?

Just thinking out loud.

For those words I've been using "ìm trr" and "trr alezera'u"  First one might be legal for "before day" but I fear for the legality of "coming day" for tomorrow, since it is as-of-yet unknown whether or not you can put a prefix onto a verb that has been inflected. "a-le-z<er>a'u."
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #219 on: January 19, 2010, 08:13:08 am »
you wouldn't need to inflect the verb, trr a z<ìy>a'u (day that is going to come) is fine if a little idiomatic so may be incorrect.

If that is correct though, yesterday would probably be trr a z<ìm>a'u (day that just came).
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