Author Topic: Our Dictionary  (Read 93761 times)

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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #340 on: January 27, 2010, 04:02:06 pm »
OMG I had a huge case of gender bending in that second example... *boggles* How did I screw that up so bad?

Anyway...

'eylan (((((oeyä sempulä) eyktanä) tsmukeyä) 'eylanä) 'itanä)

vs

'eylan (sempulä (eyktanä (tsmukeyä ('eylanä ('itanä oeyä)))))

The whole thing can be taken together as a noun phrase for the sake of the genitive.  This is attested in Frommer's letter.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #341 on: January 27, 2010, 04:06:59 pm »
OMG I had a huge case of gender bending in that second example... *boggles* How did I screw that up so bad?

Anyway...

'eylan (((((oeyä sempulä) eyktanä) tsmukeyä) 'eylanä) 'itanä)

vs

'eylan (sempulä (eyktanä (tsmukeyä ('eylanä ('itanä oeyä)))))

The whole thing can be taken together as a noun phrase for the sake of the genitive.  This is attested in Frommer's letter.

A Karma to you +1
私は太った男だ。


Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #342 on: January 27, 2010, 04:13:12 pm »
I've been spending most of my time lately in the na'vi nì'aw board and was wondering if we could have the linguistics (and other) terms from that board in the dictionary (either listed as derived or in a separate section).

Irayo ma Taronyu, ngal txana fpomit oer tiveiìng txo ngal aylì'ut [dictionary]hu 'awsivi.

Thank you Taronyu, you would make me very happy if you were to add these words to the dictionary. :)

(also I just thought, surely futa can only apply to accusatives, would the ergative be fula and dative fura?)
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #343 on: January 27, 2010, 04:14:37 pm »
I've been spending most of my time lately in the na'vi nì'aw board and was wondering if we could have the linguistics (and other) terms from that board in the dictionary (either listed as derived or in a separate section).

Irayo ma Taronyu, ngal txana fpomit oer tiveiìng txo ngal aylì'ut [dictionary]hu 'awsivi.

Thank you Taronyu, you would make me very happy if you were to add these words to the dictionary. :)

(also I just thought, surely futa can only apply to accusatives, would the ergative be fula and dative fura?)
Don't know, I've been playing it safe and using the non-contracted version.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #344 on: January 27, 2010, 04:17:27 pm »
Well they wouldn't be used as often so I suppose it makes sense for them not to contract and, as you say is a lot safer. It was just an off-topic random thought, not a serious well-thought-out suggestion.  ;)
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
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Offline Taronyu

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Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #346 on: January 27, 2010, 04:41:41 pm »
That would be more than a double date, because a double date would still just be pxoe.
Pxoeng would be a three-way. Two couples (a double date) would be ayoeng. Actually, languages which have a supposed quadral number use it for two couples.

Anyway, Frommer contacted them and had it corrected.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:51:25 pm by roger »

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #347 on: January 27, 2010, 04:53:21 pm »
(also I just thought, surely futa can only apply to accusatives, would the ergative be fula and dative fura?)
That seems reasonable.

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #348 on: January 27, 2010, 04:57:17 pm »
OMG I had a huge case of gender bending in that second example... *boggles* How did I screw that up so bad?

Anyway...

'eylan (((((oeyä sempulä) eyktanä) tsmukeyä) 'eylanä) 'itanä)

vs

'eylan (sempulä (eyktanä (tsmukeyä ('eylanä ('itanä oeyä)))))

The whole thing can be taken together as a noun phrase for the sake of the genitive.  This is attested in Frommer's letter.

Ahhh, that makes more sense. Thanks :)
So I guess the genetive rules are similar to the adjectives, it just needs to be next to what it's modifying (in front of, or behind).


On a lighter note, however, I was thinking... these are primitive people, right? They live in a forest as hunter-gatherers, they eat raw food, they don't have agriculture or anything.
So why is their language more advanced than English? Why does their language look so much like Latin with so many cases for everything and so many unnecessary complications? This seems more like linguistic masturbation than anything, and it's completely overkill for when you merely need to tell someone you've decided to kill him and take his rock now.

Plus, they don't even have a written language, so it's all ephemeral. You can't just go back and mark all the parentheses like you just did, in your head. It's bad enough to understand on paper. Unless the Na'vi have brains that can also go backwards in time, that last sentence would be completely incomprehensible to any living creature. If you told me that in Na'vi, my eyes would glaze over.. and then I'd probably hit you on the head with my club for being a pillock    ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 05:09:51 pm by Mirri »
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #349 on: January 27, 2010, 05:03:22 pm »
Anyway, Frommer contacted them and had it corrected.

That dude rocks.

  - Eri

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #350 on: January 27, 2010, 05:13:29 pm »
On a lighter note, however, I was thinking... these are primitive people, right? They live in a forest as hunter-gatherers, they eat raw food, they don't have agriculture or anything.
So why is their language more advanced than English? Why does their language look so much like Latin with so many cases for everything and so many unnecessary complications? This seems more like linguistic masturbation than anything, and it's completely overkill for when you merely need to tell someone you've decided to kill him and take his rock now.

Plus, they don't even have a written language, so it's all ephemeral. You can't just go back and mark all the parentheses like you just did, in your head. It's bad enough to understand on paper. Unless the Na'vi have brains that can also go backwards in time, that last sentence would be completely incomprehensible to any living creature. If you told me that in Na'vi, my eyes would glaze over.. and then I'd probably hit you on the head with my club for being a pillock    ;)

It's a really common misconception that the "simpler" (meaning, non-Western, really) a culture, the simpler it's language should be. If anything, it's the opposite. When there aren't many people who need to understand, as in, when it doesn't need to be simple in order that other languages can interact with it, you find lots and lots of complexity. Look at protoindoeuropean, or Greek. Amazing languages, very complex. Look at Archi, a language in the caucausus that has thousands of morphological endings. And if things aren't written down, that just means that they grow more, and faster, bringing about more change.

If anything, I'd argue that Na'vi isn't very complex, at all! Their phonology is simple, they have a pretty easy grammar, their lexicon is shorter than my grocery list (ha ha ha). Look at how complex English is, in comparison. It's ridiculous.

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #351 on: January 27, 2010, 05:26:56 pm »
On a lighter note, however, I was thinking... these are primitive people, right? They live in a forest as hunter-gatherers, they eat raw food, they don't have agriculture or anything.
So why is their language more advanced than English? Why does their language look so much like Latin with so many cases for everything and so many unnecessary complications? This seems more like linguistic masturbation than anything, and it's completely overkill for when you merely need to tell someone you've decided to kill him and take his rock now.

Plus, they don't even have a written language, so it's all ephemeral. You can't just go back and mark all the parentheses like you just did, in your head. It's bad enough to understand on paper. Unless the Na'vi have brains that can also go backwards in time, that last sentence would be completely incomprehensible to any living creature. If you told me that in Na'vi, my eyes would glaze over.. and then I'd probably hit you on the head with my club for being a pillock    ;)

It's a really common misconception that the "simpler" (meaning, non-Western, really) a culture, the simpler it's language should be. If anything, it's the opposite. When there aren't many people who need to understand, as in, when it doesn't need to be simple in order that other languages can interact with it, you find lots and lots of complexity. Look at protoindoeuropean, or Greek. Amazing languages, very complex. Look at Archi, a language in the caucausus that has thousands of morphological endings. And if things aren't written down, that just means that they grow more, and faster, bringing about more change.

If anything, I'd argue that Na'vi isn't very complex, at all! Their phonology is simple, they have a pretty easy grammar, their lexicon is shorter than my grocery list (ha ha ha). Look at how complex English is, in comparison. It's ridiculous.

I'll grant there's something to be said for languages from parts of the world with no TV where no one has anything better to do than to knit sweaters while watching cows and making up new words. One of my friends is an anthropologist and the mind boggles at how complex some of these 'native' languages are in places where you'd think all these people ever need to talk about is how many pigs they'd like for dinner tonight.
For some reason it's all about the cases, though. If you look at, say, Finnish and Inuit, it's aaaall about tacking more endings onto the words rather than make up new ones. They'd rather expand words than use more of them, which seems to me the opposite of what English does. If you want to be more specific about something in English, you add more context and more words. More sentences, even. (meta-joke)

And like you say, the more different people you need to interact with, the simpler your language has to become. Kind of like finding the lowest common denominator. English seems to have gone through a fair few simplifications over the years, like getting rid of the deferential 'thou', for instance.

But if Na'vi actually follows its own rules of pronounciation despite how much you mix up syllables (as opposed to English. Why's there a vocal difference between 'gone' and 'bone'?), I'd argue it's the simplest language yet!
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #352 on: January 27, 2010, 05:29:51 pm »
But if Na'vi actually follows its own rules of pronounciation despite how much you mix up syllables (as opposed to English. Why's there a vocal difference between 'gone' and 'bone'?), I'd argue it's the simplest language yet!

Hahaha. Pirahã & Rotokas.

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #353 on: January 27, 2010, 05:37:46 pm »
But if Na'vi actually follows its own rules of pronounciation despite how much you mix up syllables (as opposed to English. Why's there a vocal difference between 'gone' and 'bone'?), I'd argue it's the simplest language yet!

Hahaha. Pirahã & Rotokas.

Yeah, I was just waiting for one of you language geeks to contradict me ;)

I like the Pirahã's total inability to count, and their pidgin Portuguese. That's fun stuff.

Note also the many affixes these people use. Again with the word expansions!
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline donjoe

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #354 on: January 27, 2010, 05:46:10 pm »
From elsewhere, about the dictionary references:

For me, the first authority on the language is the movie itself (the only place the Na'vi are real and where we can hear them speak) - when all the characters pronounce the same word in the same way - and second comes Frommer (for when the movie characters aren't all consistent or when they don't help at all). This ASG thing, I don't know. Frommer sure isn't listed as an author.

It's the same with "tsaheylu": if everyone in the movie calls it "tsaheylu" every time, then for me it has to be "tsaheylu" no matter what else happens outside the movie.

(Where by "it's the same" I meant I was going with the movie and against the ASG in holding that "go" = "ka" instead of "kä". But at the time I didn't know there was also a "ka" in the ASG. I don't know what I'm going to do with that one. :P)

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #355 on: January 27, 2010, 05:51:11 pm »
Plus, they don't even have a written language, so it's all ephemeral. You can't just go back and mark all the parentheses like you just did, in your head. It's bad enough to understand on paper. Unless the Na'vi have brains that can also go backwards in time, that last sentence would be completely incomprehensible to any living creature. If you told me that in Na'vi, my eyes would glaze over.. and then I'd probably hit you on the head with my club for being a pillock    ;)

And if someone in English tried to talk about "My father's leader's sister's friend's son's friend" rather than reading it written down here, your eyes would also glaze over and they might as well have just said "Some person" to begin with, because it will mean about as much to you.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #356 on: January 27, 2010, 05:56:25 pm »
Plus, they don't even have a written language, so it's all ephemeral. You can't just go back and mark all the parentheses like you just did, in your head. It's bad enough to understand on paper. Unless the Na'vi have brains that can also go backwards in time, that last sentence would be completely incomprehensible to any living creature. If you told me that in Na'vi, my eyes would glaze over.. and then I'd probably hit you on the head with my club for being a pillock    ;)

And if someone in English tried to talk about "My father's leader's sister's friend's son's friend" rather than reading it written down here, your eyes would also glaze over and they might as well have just said "Some person" to begin with, because it will mean about as much to you.


Weeeeeell.. depends how fast you said it. I think if you said it one word at a time and slowly, I could follow it in my mind by thinking of each person in a row and their relationships. But backwards is impossible for me.
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Kiliyä

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #357 on: January 27, 2010, 11:03:02 pm »
Ma Taronyu,

Are you using a Unicode font for displaying the letters? In copying and pasting from the dictionary, I always get odd letters for ì and ä.  Usually the IPA letters are fine, though.  Are diacritical marks a problem?
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #358 on: January 27, 2010, 11:24:03 pm »
Ma Taronyu,

Are you using a Unicode font for displaying the letters? In copying and pasting from the dictionary, I always get odd letters for ì and ä.  Usually the IPA letters are fine, though.  Are diacritical marks a problem?
You're right. Those aren't Unicode. I've copied ìlä and its IPA here:

     ıl¨a: [Ilæ]

Should be
 
     ìlä: [ɪlæ]

At this point, I don't know whether Taronyu will find it worthwhile to change (the IPA needs to be updated as well), but it does make the dictionary rather inaccessible to anyone who wants to copy directly from it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 11:26:01 pm by roger »

Offline suomichris

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #359 on: January 27, 2010, 11:30:11 pm »
It also makes it hard to search the PDF for a given word :p  Hopefully Taronyu can find an easy way to update it.

 

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