Author Topic: Our Dictionary  (Read 93775 times)

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Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #360 on: January 27, 2010, 11:30:45 pm »
New Dictionary version up!
Where are you talking about? The only version I see was last updated Jan 07.

Ah, I see. Never mind. Might be a good idea to make it generally available, though.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 11:32:36 pm by roger »

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #361 on: January 28, 2010, 12:00:43 am »
Reply to Jan 27 ed:

'eko is a verb
'ekong is a noun
'ìheyu is a noun
'upxare is a noun
ätxäle is a noun; missing the verb, N+si
ayoeng is pronounced [aj'weŋ]
why is the plural of ayskxe listed separately?
why is fayvrrtep listed separately?
I'm dubious about fìfya, fìkem, fìtseng being PNs
/ll/ isn't long, just syllabic. Na'vi d n h long Vs. Lateral equiv. of /rr/.
fpi is a prep
ftaväng could easily be a noun
fyape: typo
hu: you're calling the others prep, not adp.
ioang: we h stress in cmpnd
ke isn't a prep
kin appears to be a verb from the movie
kxangangang is likely to be an injn, not a noun
missing lrrtok si 'to smile'
ma is not an adp, AFAIK; more likely a particle.
is it Ninat or Nìnat? your trans. disagree
nulnew to prefer
typo in 1st IPA for nìayoeng
oe- is also [we]
IPA of oeng not clear. might be [weng]
omum - stress on ult.
(pxasìk (vowel))
sä- is a pref., not adp
si is not an affix. it can be detached from the noun. Rather, N + si is a set construction of two words, like Vb + prep often is in English
sì but also -sì
*tapirus violates Na'vi phonotactics
AFAIK, only te is attested from C, not *te'
teylu would seem to be a mass noun
if we pronounce it tsaheylu, we should write it tsaheylu
tsteu: the IPA has an extra /e/
vay is a prep
(yawne: not a noun?)

where is fwa attested from? An email?
where are rel, reltseo attested?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:37:07 am by roger »

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #362 on: January 28, 2010, 04:39:22 am »
Ma Taronyu,

Are you using a Unicode font for displaying the letters? In copying and pasting from the dictionary, I always get odd letters for ì and ä.  Usually the IPA letters are fine, though.  Are diacritical marks a problem?

No. I'm not. I'm been having more than a few issues trying to get Unicode to work, but retaining my formatting. I am forced to use the Latex commands \`i and \"a to get those characters. Trust me, I've tried a lot of alternatives. Nothing seems to work. If you want an example of how bad this document can be made to look to work around Unicode, look at my Russian Dictionary.  (Of which I am actually quite ashamed).

As for the IPA, I'm using TIPA. It's the easiest way for me to put IPA into this thing, but it does leave ŋ as N, ä as \ae, ʔ as P, and so on.

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #363 on: January 28, 2010, 05:22:15 am »
Anyway, Frommer contacted them and had it corrected.
That dude rocks.
  - Eri

I don't think he'd mind me repeating the words he used when he saw that. They nicely illustrate a couple of things we've been talking about:

Oel foru fìaylì'ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.

(I added the underlining; he just said hahaw has "stress on 1st".)

First time I've seen uncontracted version of fay-.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #364 on: January 28, 2010, 05:27:06 am »
Fìaylì'ut?

Interesting...  That seems to counter-attest the "fay+"...  Does anyone know where the "fay" (fì+ay) prefix is attested?
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #365 on: January 28, 2010, 05:30:56 am »
Fìaylì'ut?

Interesting...  That seems to counter-attest the "fay+"...  Does anyone know where the "fay" (fì+ay) prefix is attested?
Well, it's in the movie in a couple places, but we had it before that.

Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì.
"These demons are forbidden here."

We have that in writing, don't we?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 05:32:33 am by roger »

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #366 on: January 28, 2010, 05:37:09 am »
Contextually that makes more sense as "fìvrrtep" because there's only one there...  Depending if he's saying "This demon (Right here) is forbidden here" or "These demons (Like this one) are forbidden here"...  What was the subtitle on that scene?

And more to the point...  Would the pronunciation sound any different?
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #367 on: January 28, 2010, 06:48:41 am »
'eko is a verb
'ekong is a noun
'ìheyu is a noun
tsteu: the IPA has an extra /e/
vay is a prep
'upxare is a noun
*tapirus violates Na'vi phonotactics
AFAIK, only te is attested from C, not *te'
hu: you're calling the others prep, not adp.
typo in 1st IPA for nìayoeng
yawne: not a noun?
is it Ninat or Nìnat? your trans. disagree
sì but also -sì
si is not an affix. it can be detached from the noun. Rather, N + si is a set construction of two words, like Vb + prep often is in English
(pxasìk (vowel))
/ll/ isn't long, just syllabic. Na'vi d n h long Vs. Lateral equiv. of /rr/.
fpi is a prep
kin appears to be a verb from the movie
kxangangang is likely to be an injn, not a noun
ma is not an adp, AFAIK; more likely a particle.
Lolatem.
ätxäle is a noun; missing the verb, N+si
missing lrrtok si 'to smile'
omum - stress on ult.
teylu would seem to be a mass noun
nulnew to prefer
Attestation?
ayoeng is pronounced [aj'weŋ]
oe- is also [we]
IPA of oeng not clear. might be [weng]
Glottal stop? We sure about the [we], now?
why is the plural of ayskxe listed separately?
why is fayvrrtep listed separately?
Deleted. Also, l<iv>u, nga-, txan, oe-. These were here before we knew the rules for stress, which now make them redundant.
I'm dubious about fìfya, fìkem, fìtseng being PNs.
We have a thread about defining all of these words. Can I get a definitive opinion on them? From all of you who read this. Arg.
ftaväng could easily be a noun
Where are you finding this word?
fyape: typo

What typo?
ioang: we h stress in cmpnd
Lolatem, and also lolatem yomioang.
ke isn't a prep
Did I say it was?

sä- is a pref., not adp
I haven't distinguished these in the document. others: ke-, fì- , etc. Should I?

if we pronounce it tsaheylu, we should write it tsaheylu
No comment.

where is fwa attested from? An email?
where are rel, reltseo attested?
Frommer's email to Skxawng.

Thank you roger. :) Updated.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 06:56:36 am by Taronyu »

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #368 on: January 28, 2010, 07:02:23 am »
fyape: typo

What typo?

I think he means in the fyape entry it says "allomorph of fyape". Should say "allomorph of pefya".

Shouldn't lrrtok be a noun (at least) if lrrtok si is attested?

Also, mun'i seems to be an attested verb from your correspondence

I think mokri can be safely categorized as a noun, considering we have an example of its plural in Utral Aymokriyä

Edited to add: There also seems to be a leftover word from B.F.M. (before Frommer's message). Ler is defined as work, derived from lertu, we know work is tìkangkem now.

And I don't know if it's appropriate (I hope so), but I think that like the IPA following a word helps understanding, I would like each verb to have its infix positions marked. It's difficult to always get the tense/aspect inserted in the right place, except for the common words we keep seeing on the forum (hunt, want, make, etc.).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:24:16 am by Mirri »
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #369 on: January 28, 2010, 09:45:11 am »
ätxäle is a noun; missing the verb, N+si
missing lrrtok si 'to smile'
omum - stress on ult.
teylu would seem to be a mass noun
nulnew to prefer
Attestation?
ätxäle si: Dialog page in behind the scenes video (Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron.)
lrrtok si: Norm's line in the movie (’Awve ultxari ohengeyä, Nawma Sa’nok lrrtok siveiyi; it does sound more like *sveiyi, but it can't be anything other than the subjunctive)
omum: For example here.
nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.

ayoeng is pronounced [aj'weŋ]
oe- is also [we]
IPA of oeng not clear. might be [weng]
Glottal stop? We sure about the [we], now?
IPA stress marker, more like. Regarding [we], I think Roger meant that when oe is inflected, the shift occurs. WP is sure about that, at least.

I'm dubious about fìfya, fìkem, fìtseng being PNs.
We have a thread about defining all of these words. Can I get a definitive opinion on them? From all of you who read this. Arg.
I have some thoughts. Do you mean this thread?

ftaväng could easily be a noun
Where are you finding this word?
I'm guessing he means ftxavang, in which case I agree unless there's explicit confirmation of adjectivity.

fyape: typo

What typo?
Mirri spotted this, but I also suspect there's a typo in the last line of the introduction, which I can't parse. Did you by any chance mean te frapo sì ne frapo...?


sä- is a pref., not adp
I haven't distinguished these in the document. others: ke-, fì- , etc. Should I?
If you ask me: yes. :)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #370 on: January 28, 2010, 11:14:13 am »
Edited:
lrrtok
fyape
mun'i
mokri
ätkxäle

added:
lrrtok si
ätkxäli

Regarding:
*ler: doesn't mean that this still couldn't exist.
mum: leaving it as it is. We have definite indication of penult stress in the ASG.
nulnew: leaving pending evidence?
Defining words: Yes, please go to that thread.
Ftxavang could be, but it's derived, so it doesn't matter.
affixes: added to the list of things to do.
Verb inflection spots: added to the list, as well.
ow => we: still not sure about this

Offline suomichris

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #371 on: January 28, 2010, 12:30:34 pm »
nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.
Er... huh?  The context makes it clear, and it is clearly analyzable as nul-new: "more-want."  Maybe I'm not getting your meaning here...

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #372 on: January 28, 2010, 12:35:20 pm »
nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.
Er... huh?  The context makes it clear, and it is clearly analyzable as nul-new: "more-want."  Maybe I'm not getting your meaning here...

I have to agree with you, I don't see the problem. The line is from Frommer himself:

Ke lu kawtu a nuln<iv>ew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä.
There's nobody I'd rather commune with under the Tree of Voices.

Doesn't get much more canon than that.


Incidentally, we're seeing quite a trend of using 'nul' as an adjective enhancing affix. Maybe "better" is "nulsìltsan", "stronger" is "nultxur", etc...?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:37:11 pm by Mirri »
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #373 on: January 28, 2010, 01:17:21 pm »
nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.
Er... huh?  The context makes it clear, and it is clearly analyzable as nul-new: "more-want."  Maybe I'm not getting your meaning here...
My problem comes from how the sentence is worded:

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä
not be no-one that prefer(SJV) I him/her-with commune under tree voices-of
There is no one that I'd prefer to commune with under the Tree of Voices

To me it looks like a straight translation of nulnew as "prefer" changes the basic meaning of the utterance (of all possible partners, no one stands out).

Did that make sense?

// Lance R. Casey

Offline suomichris

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #374 on: January 28, 2010, 01:34:47 pm »
nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.
Er... huh?  The context makes it clear, and it is clearly analyzable as nul-new: "more-want."  Maybe I'm not getting your meaning here...
My problem comes from how the sentence is worded:

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä
not be no-one that prefer(SJV) I him/her-with commune under tree voices-of
There is no one that I'd prefer to commune with under the Tree of Voices

To me it looks like a straight translation of nulnew as "prefer" changes the basic meaning of the utterance (of all possible partners, no one stands out).

Did that make sense?
So, is your issue just that "prefer" is perhaps too free a translation?  The sentence is clearly, "There is not anyway with whom I would want more to...."

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #375 on: January 28, 2010, 01:46:24 pm »
nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.
Er... huh?  The context makes it clear, and it is clearly analyzable as nul-new: "more-want."  Maybe I'm not getting your meaning here...
My problem comes from how the sentence is worded:

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä
not be no-one that prefer(SJV) I him/her-with commune under tree voices-of
There is no one that I'd prefer to commune with under the Tree of Voices

To me it looks like a straight translation of nulnew as "prefer" changes the basic meaning of the utterance (of all possible partners, no one stands out).

Did that make sense?

I agree the way you've worded it in English makes it seem ambiguous, but I think the Na'vi meaning is clear. It's English that's muddled up, because you try to translate it and then when you read the translation back again, it has more than one meaning :)

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä
Not be no-one that more-want-SJV I he/she-with spirit-convey-SJV under Tree of Voices.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 01:51:17 pm by Mirri »
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #376 on: January 28, 2010, 04:20:38 pm »
Can we make an educated guess at "vitra" being the noun "soul"?

Tree of Souls: Vitrautral. (soul tree)
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #377 on: January 28, 2010, 04:32:02 pm »
Can we make an educated guess at "vitra" being the noun "soul"?

Tree of Souls: Vitrautral. (soul tree)

It's also found in Ayvitrayä Ramunong Well of Souls, which is what Grace calls the place in the movie, so I'd accept vitra as "soul".

And, regarding the previous subject:
No, I don't have a problem with the Na'vi line as such. What I was getting at is that at least to me, the inclusion of nulnew as a simple "prefer (v.)" in the dictionary might not be entirely accurate -- but not entirely inaccurate either. When I read the sentence, I interpret nulnew as new with an applied modifier rather than a verb in its own right. Others might not.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #378 on: January 28, 2010, 04:43:37 pm »
Can we make an educated guess at "vitra" being the noun "soul"?

Tree of Souls: Vitrautral. (soul tree)

It's also found in Ayvitrayä Ramunong Well of Souls, which is what Grace calls the place in the movie, so I'd accept vitra as "soul".

And, regarding the previous subject:
No, I don't have a problem with the Na'vi line as such. What I was getting at is that at least to me, the inclusion of nulnew as a simple "prefer (v.)" in the dictionary might not be entirely accurate -- but not entirely inaccurate either. When I read the sentence, I interpret nulnew as new with an applied modifier rather than a verb in its own right. Others might not.

I agree with you there, I think this is more evidence that nul is a modifier. Nulnew appears to be a modified word, rather than a word of its own, but it's still canon and should go in the corpus.
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #379 on: January 28, 2010, 05:11:34 pm »
I agree with you there, I think this is more evidence that nul is a modifier. Nulnew appears to be a modified word, rather than a word of its own, but it's still canon and should go in the corpus.

On that note...

The wiki has had a Corpus page for a while (started by wm.annis - thanks!) to document every scrap of the corpus we can get our grubby little hands on.  It recently got a Canon page to document the canonical sources from which both the corpus and the revealed grammar rules are drawn from.  And even more recently, Na'rìghawnu has been doing amazing work in building a Lexicon page, working her way through the corpus and adding words complete with specific examples from, and citations to, the corpus.

The wiki lexicon page isn't as complete as Taronyu's dictionary, yet.  It doesn't contain derived words, and there's still a good ways to go before even all the strictly canonical words have been added from the corpus.  But it's getting there...

... and everyone can help.  If you ever find yourself saying "it's canon and should go in the corpus", extend that sentiment a bit and say "it's Canon and should go in the Corpus page on the Learn Na'vi wiki".  And then say "... and I'm going to go add it now."

  - Eri

 

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