Author Topic: Our Dictionary  (Read 89033 times)

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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2009, 01:43:29 am »

Thank you very much, Taronyu, - again - for your quick response! I feel a bit ashamed about the million "thank you"s, so I'd like to send them back.

Of course: The part of speech for many of the words are undoubtful. My remark was just about words like "touch" or "wrong" or "dance" or "begin" and so on.

As a latin teacher, who studied classics (of course), I find it even a bit amusing, that in the development of the Na'vi-Vocabularies we can see the same problems, which always appear, when one tries to reconstruct an ancient text. There is always the primary source (in most times lost or unknown), than this source was copied (Copy A), than this copy was the source for further copies (Copy B) which were the source for other copies and so on. And every time a text is copied, it is (necessarely) altered, so that in our times it is a really hard job to reconstruct, what was in the original text, what Caesar or Cicero or Tacitus really meant.

As for the Na'vi-Dictionaries I think we have the following "Line of tradition":

Frommers notes only known to himself (mother source) --> Survival guide (primary source) --> Internet-list by "matt" (Copy A) --> Pocket guide (Copy B) --> your dictionary (Copy C)

One thing you can observe is, that, if one of the copyists doesn't share an information (on purpose or by mistake), the following texts will not include this information any longer (deletion). This is the case about all the words, which didn't make it from the mother to the primary source yet, and this is the case e. g. about the word 'awkx (cliff), which is in the primary source (right between 'aw and 'awpo), but not in the Copy A (I suppose, matt just copied not very carefully). And since then the word is lost (Copies B and C doen't include it).

The other thing is, that if a copyist alters the text (because he thinks, that he is correcting an error, or that it would be better for the readers to know also this or that), this alteration will be part of the further copies (augmentation). This is the case with all the stress-marks and syllable-dots, which were added to Copy A by Karyu Amawey. Now they are not only in his Pocket guide, but made it also in your dictionary.

The problem about all this is, that a person, who just has one of the copies has no choice as to take this copy's information for granted. But this information may be wrong (compared to the original text). And since we don't know much about the mother source (that means: Frommers grammarbook and dictionary - in case they exist), there is allways the problem, that someday we - hopefully - will get access to that mother. And than it maybe, that many informations, which we took for granted, will not fit to the mother.

So - as well as Prrton did often about grammar-points - I just want to stress out, that it is quite tricky to add information to the material we got and declare things to be so or so, when the only foundations of all this are (more or less plausible) guesses. People may take this things as granted and memorize them during their language learning, and have to UNLEARN things, when the mother will be accessibe. And unlearning things, which seemed to be clear, isn't that easy. So I would suggest more caution and precision in compiling offsprings, so that anybody can clearly separate the things we really know (because they were released officially) from the things we are just guessing.



Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2009, 01:55:08 am »
Ma tsmutan! I studied latin for five years, and majored in Greek for two years in University before switching to just Linguistics. I know exactly what you mean about these errors.

I've fixed everything. Go download it again. Tell me if you find any errors, you're very helpful. I've also added 'awkx - I went through the guides, so as to avoid this problem, but it looks like I missed this one! Thanks.

I'm leaving the part of speeches in, but if people have issues, I will mark them with a question mark. Please let me know which ones you think should be marked that way, if you want.

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2009, 02:19:11 am »
:D Nice to see, how Na'vi seems to attract classic people. Must have something appealing to us ...

At the moment I try to collect and understand the information we got about the Na'vi language and compile it in German (my mothertongue). There are no plans to publish this material at this moment, it's just for the fun of having the chance to do "philological field-search". So I also try to make my own Na'vi-German-Dictionary ... as a source I use the Survival-Guide-List at the moment. I've added just a view words to my dictionary, but the problems started on the first word: 'ampi (touch), since in German the verb and the noun doen't share the same word (berühren vs. Berührung). So I would have to make a decision. But that's impossible at the Moment. I have to mark all my thoughts about it with a question mark, until I find the word in an officially released Na'vi-senctence, from which it's part of speech might be recognizable.

I unfortunatly doen't have much time for my "studies" at the moment, but when I will have compiled more problems, I will certainly let you know, ma tsmukan.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:24:32 am by Harìghawnu »

Offline Ptxèrra

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2009, 03:55:23 am »
kaltxì, ma taronyu,

please tell me if i am wrong, but  you call `it a noun, which can take male and female form.
but well `it-an and `it-e  means son and daughter.
but `it means:  a bit, small amount

and in your dictionary,  you only mention `it and leave itan and ite.
why is this.


is this an error or just the right way and i am missing something.
please tell me becouse i am making my own dictionary(Na'vi - Dutch)
and i try keeping errors to a minimum.

so if i am right, please tell and if i am wrong please explain why.

Irayo ma Taronyu
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2009, 03:59:20 am »
Hey Ptxèrra, That's a good point. I joined those because they were the same, but should have realised that a "female bit" is a bit weird. :D

Fixed. I made it two entries.

’it: ['it] n. bit, a small amount
’it±: ['it] n. progeny

Will be in the next upload.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 04:00:54 am by Taronyu »

Offline wm.annis

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2009, 08:41:47 am »
As for the Na'vi-Dictionaries I think we have the following "Line of tradition":

Frommers notes only known to himself (mother source) --> Survival guide (primary source) --> Internet-list by "matt" (Copy A) --> Pocket guide (Copy B) --> your dictionary (Copy C)

I have felt for several years that we'll soon need a new sub-speciality in textual criticism: internet stemmatics.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one approaching Na'vi with an old-school philological approach.  :)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Prrntxe

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2009, 08:37:58 pm »
Minor note:

Quote
ä: [æ] allophone of genitive affix for nouns ending in a consonant

I think that should be an allomorph.

Nice work. I'm using it to go through and checking all my notes.
Oeri Loräkx lu. Fpi ayutral plltxe oe.

Offline Prrntxe

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2009, 09:14:29 pm »
Quote
fìfya: [fIfja] pn. this, this way, like this

We've been calling this a pronoun for a while, but I wonder if we should be treating it as an adverbial. (In fact, the whole table of demonstratives on the Wikipedia page reminds me of the table of correlatives in Esperanto).
Oeri Loräkx lu. Fpi ayutral plltxe oe.

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2009, 02:03:38 am »
Hallo, Taronyu.

Here are the words with the - maybe - questionable part-of-speech-attribution, which I found till now (alphabetically from 'ampi to eltu for now):

'ampi (touch) - verb or noun?
'awve (first) - numeral/adjective or adverb?
'e'al (worst) - adjective or adverb?
'eko (attack) - verb or noun?
'ekog (beat) - verb or noun?
'ìheyu (spiral) - noun or adjective?
alìm (far away, at a distance) - adjective or adverb (or maybe even adposition)?
atan (light) - adjective (with several meanings) or noun(!)?
ätxäle (request) - verb or noun?
ean (blue) - adjective or noun?

I didn't check, if any of these words are used in officially published sentences, from which their part of speech might be recognizable, because at the moment I'm trying to compile my dictionary, but - IMHO - it's such a hard job, because we have just much to less information ... The Survival guide just gives us "atan - light", but WHAT "light" is meant: light weight, bright light, ...? My dictionary till now contains nearly as much question marks as entries.

(The same thing about the syllable-borders. In some cases there is only one possibility, but often there are two or more ...)

Well, working on.
Happy New Year to everyone!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 02:05:12 am by Harìghawnu »

Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2009, 02:33:50 am »
If I may, I would like to enter a few words into this discussion.

First, my deepest thanks to everyone here for their diligence in the creation of a useful guide to the Na'vi language.

As a true beginner to this study, I must admit that I find myself scratching my head at almost every post in his thread. I am amazed to find so many linguaphiles, as my particular specialty in life is the study of effective magic and philosophy, having found this wonderful site from a link at Paganspace, where many Avatar fans are seeking to learn the Na'vi language. I can say that we are all looking forward to your creation, and many of us are struggling with the basics; most notably the pronunciation guides.

From my perspective, the sociological aspects of the Na'vi and their religious/magical practices are easily deciphered by comparison to a wealth of earth-based cultures I am familiar with--but trying to master the exotic characters from the printed page (er... website/pdf) is challenging. For all of the brain power set to work on this task, it seems that the vernacular is stratospheric, and at times inaccessible to those of us with tinier (and pointy!) heads. My (current) best guess is simply to keep reading everything marked "beginner" and try to make sense of it through osmosis. Please know that there are many viewing your progress, and trying to keep up.

 :)
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2009, 04:34:06 am »
If I may, I would like to enter a few words into this discussion.

First, my deepest thanks to everyone here for their diligence in the creation of a useful guide to the Na'vi language.

As a true beginner to this study, I must admit that I find myself scratching my head at almost every post in his thread. I am amazed to find so many linguaphiles, as my particular specialty in life is the study of effective magic and philosophy, having found this wonderful site from a link at Paganspace, where many Avatar fans are seeking to learn the Na'vi language. I can say that we are all looking forward to your creation, and many of us are struggling with the basics; most notably the pronunciation guides.

From my perspective, the sociological aspects of the Na'vi and their religious/magical practices are easily deciphered by comparison to a wealth of earth-based cultures I am familiar with--but trying to master the exotic characters from the printed page (er... website/pdf) is challenging. For all of the brain power set to work on this task, it seems that the vernacular is stratospheric, and at times inaccessible to those of us with tinier (and pointy!) heads. My (current) best guess is simply to keep reading everything marked "beginner" and try to make sense of it through osmosis. Please know that there are many viewing your progress, and trying to keep up.

 :)

The more precise and comprehensive the source material, the better the common understanding regardless of region.  The scientific approach is the only reason we have, what we now have in the way of vocab and grammar.

The problem is, right now, is that this site is a kin to an archaeological dig site.  The people with the expertise do not have the information they need to complete the lesson plan and explain Na'vi in its entirety, until they complete the dig (sifting through available information).

Making learning Na'vi easier, requires sufficient comprehensive knowledge to take workable shortcuts, that just isn't possible right now.  Given ample time, things will be simplified, but only within the realm of a few languages.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 06:52:24 am by vidvamp01 »
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Offline Sh4rK

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2009, 06:41:13 am »
Kaltxì ma Taronyu!

The Na'vi word sa’nok is missing from your dictionary. The meaning and pronounciation is there, but the word itself isn't.

Eywa ngahu!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 09:01:10 am by szabot »

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2009, 10:23:45 am »
Hey guys,

I'm having some internet trouble right now. It's really very annoying. I'm heading off to borders in a bit, I should be able to update it from there. I did a fair amount of work last night: I've uploaded the dictionary in this post, mostly because I now know that google docs does not allow one to update a pre-existing upload. I am really very pissed off.

Anyway, here's the newest version of the dictionary.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 12:59:51 am by Taronyu »

Offline swok hawnu ma Eywa

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2009, 10:20:24 pm »
Irayo, tsmukan. Tsa'u srung nìtxan.  i hope to be able to say more as the days go by. :)
Irayo, Eywa

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2010, 01:01:36 am »
Hey guys, I have a newer version up. Go check the first page.

This version accounts for all the stress as originally compiled by Quentin Martinez, which comes from the activist handbook and other certified material directly, and none of the extra stress marks that I or Karya added. I've changed around a few words here and there, added some, etc., as usual, as well.

I am proud to say I am almost content with this one...

Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2010, 02:56:09 am »
The more precise and comprehensive the source material, the better the common understanding regardless of region.  The scientific approach is the only reason we have, what we now have in the way of vocab and grammar.

The problem is, right now, is that this site is a kin to an archaeological dig site.  The people with the expertise do not have the information they need to complete the lesson plan and explain Na'vi in its entirety, until they complete the dig (sifting through available information).

Making learning Na'vi easier, requires sufficient comprehensive knowledge to take workable shortcuts, that just isn't possible right now.  Given ample time, things will be simplified, but only within the realm of a few languages.  

Thank you!

You are wise in the ways of the Force--dammit! I mean, um.. njn kxc njhwbxn  (or something in Na'vi)
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2010, 11:15:49 am »
Thanks a million times to neosis666 for giving me ftp access to a server. I now no longer need to udpate the first page everytime.

Honestly fiapo, I'd suggest bookmarking this link:

http://talknavi.com/taronyu/Na'vi Dictionary.pdf

I update the dictionary around 10 times a day. The updates are for the most part small, but I strive to make each one useful. If you had the dictionary I started out with a week ago, you'd be completely out of the loop by now on some very important things, I feel. I've added this link to the first post, so you don't need to wade through to find this post again later.

Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2010, 01:28:31 pm »
Taronyu,
(thanks--AGAIN--for the dictionary).

As you seem to be the point man on this collection of words, might you consider an especially useful update, that being explanations with LOTS of clear examples on pronunciation. Many who want to learn Na'vi are not linguists. The table below is from the na'vi Wikipedia page and is, like everything else--thoroughly confusing:

          front     back
(high)   i (i)        u (u)
(high)   ~ (ʊ)      ì (ɪ)
(mid)    e (ɛ)      o (o)
(low)    ä (æ)     a (a)

Pardon my French, but what the (expletive) is an ì? What does it SOUND like in English? The same holds true for this monster: ɛ

I type "ɛ" into google and I get a wikipedia page with some anthropological data that looks like it came from Klingon.

Bah! Does ANYONE (in wikipedia) know how to teach?

Anyway, serious pronunciation guides, and examples for EVERY word, including how they could be used in an English sentence, would seriously increase the value of any Na'vi compendium and decrease the learning curve. By the way, I am not all talk. I have my sleeves rolled up and am looking forward to helping if I am able.

Thanks a million times to neosis666 for giving me ftp access to a server. I now no longer need to udpate the first page everytime.

Honestly fiapo, I'd suggest bookmarking this link:

http://talknavi.com/taronyu/Na'vi Dictionary.pdf

I update the dictionary around 10 times a day. The updates are for the most part small, but I strive to make each one useful. If you had the dictionary I started out with a week ago, you'd be completely out of the loop by now on some very important things, I feel. I've added this link to the first post, so you don't need to wade through to find this post again later.
World's first na'vi podcast is here: http://media.podcastingmanager.com/9/0/7/3/4/253192-243709/Media/ATA-1.mp3

New Na'vi FUN activity book is here: Please click here to download your own (free) copy! I help you omum Na'vi! :-)

LOVE YOUR VEGGIES! Don't EAT them!     ----     Before Apollo there was Gaia.

[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b31

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2010, 11:34:28 pm »
I'd suggest you check out the skype voice chat if you're having trouble with the pronunciation, 1 hour in there and you should be able to pronounce most things with ease.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: My Dictionary
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2010, 11:39:17 pm »
No problem.

Right. That's the point of IPA. It's an International Phonetics Alphabet, made so that everyone, from any language, can make sounds. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet. Look around there, that'll help.

I don't know what to say, really. The IPA is made to tell you how to pronounce it: If you know English, assumedly you don't need an example of the word used. There are things available on the site to help people pronounce: HERE it is.

This dictionary is not here to facilitate learning, it is here to facilitate use.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 11:59:55 pm by Taronyu »

 

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