Author Topic: Our Dictionary  (Read 95042 times)

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Offline Mirri

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #420 on: January 30, 2010, 08:26:21 am »
On the topic of the difference between pxel and na:
... It's possible one is a preposition ("like a rose") and one a conjunction ("like we used to do").  We know from the Behind the Scenes dialog that Jake, at least, uses na like a preposition, aylì'u na ayskxe mì te'lan, the words (are) like stones in my heart.

I'm pretty sure we haven't seen pxel in the Frommerian corpus.

I think we can add the source "M" to na and add the category prep. to it.
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #421 on: January 30, 2010, 10:24:56 am »
Changed kìyevame to an intj. Should get rid of need to mark prefixes.
It's not so much an infix as positional marker defined by the syllable. I do think that this is right.
I suspect that all -eu words are actually -ew. Which would of course change the infix. Will ask Frommer, at some point.

- stress mark for 'ite should be 'ite
No. Where are you getting this?

- futa "from fìu-t this accusative and a that" => the apostrophe in fì'u is missing (this typo is in it for a while, I think); I also liked your use of it in a sample sentence, so maybe you could add "that (thing) which" ?
Edited. Tried to give as literal a translation as possible.

- fwa "from f'u" => should be fì'u
Damn latex.

- not sure about the entry for ikranay (but I think that was discussed elsewhere) because does that mean you think that ay- can be used as pre- and suffix?
Been dealt with. Look at source: ASG. Not my fault, I'm just including it.

- alright, here's a wild guess, and I'm not sure if that has been done before (if so, please ignore): if ke- = negate, tu = person, -wong = derived from ayoeng => ketuwong = "not one of us"?
I wanted to do this when I made the thing a month ago. But I just derived *wong. I don't want to make such an assumption, really. We know about this. Might be possible. No real reason to note it.

- another wild guess: could one derive *ye'ung = "sanity" ? from keye'ung as ke + ye'ung ?
Now, this is new. Done.

- is the IPA for kìm correct in [ɱ]?
Uh...no. Fixed.

- I just love the entry for letrr, seeing it as T,F => makes me smile :)
ˆ____________________________ˆ

- where is it attested that lu has an eliding quality? (why "lu=")
Songs. I'm thinking about taking out the = altogether.

- ngop can be marked as attested by F now, can't it? - it appeared in the mail together with txula
Sure.

- definition of pe'un - you wrote inter., is that accurate?
Nope. Changed back to v., added infixes.

- something is wrong with the formating in sìlronsem
Merum. Not anymore

- stress in tsmuke "sister" is tsmuke
No it ain't. Again, where is that coming from?

Because I sure would like a nice handy rule on that stuff. I racked my brains out trying to make one, but there just isn't.

I cannot state this often enough, can I? Thanks so much for your effort! :)[/font][/size]
Thanks, a lot. Really. I do often wonder whether it's worth all the effort, haha.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #422 on: January 30, 2010, 12:49:14 pm »
Regarding the stress in 'ite and tsmuke, cf. tute person, tute woman. Also when the words (t)smukan and (t)smuke are spoken in the movie (Neytiri, Tsu'tey), the last syllable is stressed. I don't know if there is explicit confirmation that stress always shifts to the gender suffixes, but it seems likely.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #423 on: January 30, 2010, 01:35:50 pm »
Regarding the stress in 'ite and tsmuke, cf. tute person, tute woman. Also when the words (t)smukan and (t)smuke are spoken in the movie (Neytiri, Tsu'tey), the last syllable is stressed. I don't know if there is explicit confirmation that stress always shifts to the gender suffixes, but it seems likely.
But Frommer marks (t)smukan as stress on the u. His stress transcription is often at variance with the film.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #424 on: January 30, 2010, 01:45:32 pm »
Regarding the stress in 'ite and tsmuke, cf. tute person, tute woman. Also when the words (t)smukan and (t)smuke are spoken in the movie (Neytiri, Tsu'tey), the last syllable is stressed. I don't know if there is explicit confirmation that stress always shifts to the gender suffixes, but it seems likely.
But Frommer marks (t)smukan as stress on the u. His stress transcription is often at variance with the film.

... which is kind of a shame, considering all the work he went through to mark up the actors' scripts and everything.  Oh well.  Freakin' actors.  Watchagonnadoo, huh?

  - Eri

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #425 on: January 30, 2010, 03:09:47 pm »
Regarding the stress in 'ite and tsmuke, cf. tute person, tute woman. Also when the words (t)smukan and (t)smuke are spoken in the movie (Neytiri, Tsu'tey), the last syllable is stressed. I don't know if there is explicit confirmation that stress always shifts to the gender suffixes, but it seems likely.
But Frommer marks (t)smukan as stress on the u. His stress transcription is often at variance with the film.

... which is kind of a shame, considering all the work he went through to mark up the actors' scripts and everything.  Oh well.  Freakin' actors.  Watchagonnadoo, huh?

  - Eri

It could also be that prosody plays a role in Jake's speech, and that that overrides normal stress assignment.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #426 on: January 30, 2010, 04:40:40 pm »
New words from Frommerian email:

Quote
frrfen (stress on 1st) = visit (transitive verb)
Cf. frrtu = guest
teri (stress on 2nd) = about, concerning (ADP- . . . that is, an adposition that doesn't trigger lenition)
letsunslu = possible

PLUS:

Quote
The -iyev- infix, which I think you asked about before, is a "fused" form combining tense and subjunctive mood. This one is a future subjunctive.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #427 on: January 30, 2010, 05:57:43 pm »
New words from Frommerian email:

Quote
frrfen (stress on 1st) = visit (transitive verb)
Cf. frrtu = guest
teri (stress on 2nd) = about, concerning (ADP- . . . that is, an adposition that doesn't trigger lenition)
letsunslu = possible

PLUS:

Quote
The -iyev- infix, which I think you asked about before, is a "fused" form combining tense and subjunctive mood. This one is a future subjunctive.

If it is a fused infix, is there a typo?  Shouldn't it be -ìyev-?  

Ecstatic about teri.  I've wanted to know that one for a long time.

EDIT:  Never mind about the infix, for some reason I didn't see it in a quote.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 06:06:08 pm by neotrekkerz »
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #428 on: January 30, 2010, 06:04:54 pm »
"I knew" is <am>omum ?
Is it still an 'infix' if it goes in front of the word? What about the "after the first consonant of the syllable" rule?
The first consonant is null, so it goes after nothing. "After the C" is equivalent to "before the V". That's the idea, anyway.

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #429 on: January 30, 2010, 06:07:19 pm »
- stress mark for 'ite should be 'ite
No. Where are you getting this?

- stress in tsmuke "sister" is tsmuke
No it ain't. Again, where is that coming from?

Because I sure would like a nice handy rule on that stuff. I racked my brains out trying to make one, but there just isn't.

tsa'palute, oeyä kxeyey! For some reason it got into my brain after reading about the stress in the language log that the female suffix would automatically take the stress - I re-read it again, says nothing about that! Sorry about the mixup


- another wild guess: could one derive *ye'ung = "sanity" ? from keye'ung as ke + ye'ung ?
Now, this is new. Done.

Really? ;D Yay, me! :P

I cannot state this often enough, can I? Thanks so much for your effort! :)[/font][/size]
Thanks, a lot. Really. I do often wonder whether it's worth all the effort, haha.

Hey!!! Look at that entry for letrr again and be assured that your name will appear in the (hopefully) upcoming official dictionary ;) Isn't that worth something? - Don't tell me it doesn't make you at least a bit proud! :) If not:


Offline Skyinou

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #430 on: January 30, 2010, 06:08:15 pm »
Switched infix positions 1 and 2 based on kerusey
I just realized i've been awfully stupid for this, since "er" is ke-r<us>ey
But that don't say I'm wrong either. Probably there are only 2 positions? I can't really imagine <us> with something more.
Who said there was three?
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Offline roger

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #431 on: January 30, 2010, 07:12:24 pm »
If it is a fused infix, is there a typo?  Shouldn't it be -ìyev-?  

Ecstatic about teri.  I've wanted to know that one for a long time.

We should check to make sure we didn't "correct" kiyevame some time ago.

I wonder if teri is a compound, & related to the case suffix -ri. It has approximately the same scope.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #432 on: January 30, 2010, 08:10:04 pm »
We should check to make sure we didn't "correct" kiyevame some time ago.

In my email from Frommer the ì is preserved as expected.  It is also so spelled in the ASG, which, despite some odd-ballery in it, is generally reliable in the Dictionary.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Nayumeie

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #433 on: January 30, 2010, 11:17:36 pm »
Of course you'll want to add the numbers to the Dictionary now, ma tsmukan.

Oh, and zusawkrr from the same source.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 11:20:17 pm by Nayumeie »

Offline suomichris

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #434 on: January 30, 2010, 11:30:30 pm »
We should check to make sure we didn't "correct" kiyevame some time ago.

In my email from Frommer the ì is preserved as expected.  It is also so spelled in the ASG, which, despite some odd-ballery in it, is generally reliable in the Dictionary.
See here; Frommer has addressed the issue:

http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/another-email-from-frommer/?topicseen

Offline suomichris

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #435 on: January 30, 2010, 11:32:26 pm »
I wonder if teri is a compound, & related to the case suffix -ri. It has approximately the same scope.
I also wonder about this.  Given that we have 'tu' as an element meaning "person," one wonders if the "te" as here and in "tute" is some sort of.....?  Semantically bleached formative?  Or something phonological that makes this form more opaque that it would be otherwise...

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #436 on: January 31, 2010, 02:18:38 am »
Switched infix positions 1 and 2 based on kerusey
I just realized i've been awfully stupid for this, since "er" is ke-r<us>ey
But that don't say I'm wrong either. Probably there are only 2 positions? I can't really imagine <us> with something more.
Who said there was three?
There have always been two.  I don't know who first split the first position into two, but I've never agreed with it.  Also not sure what you're talking about with "er"...  kerusey is ke (not) + r<us>ey (living).  Since the word there is "rey" the infix goes into that syllable.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #437 on: January 31, 2010, 05:28:44 am »
I just realized i've been awfully stupid for this, since "er" is ke-r<us>ey
But that don't say I'm wrong either. Probably there are only 2 positions? I can't really imagine <us> with something more.
Who said there was three?
There have always been two.  I don't know who first split the first position into two, but I've never agreed with it.
Frommer himself did, actually:

"First-position infixes indicate tense, aspect, or mood; there are also participial and reflexive infixes in this position, the latter being in 'pre-first' position so it can co-occur with other first-position infixes."

But I agree with your disagreement: there should be no "infix position 3" as such.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #438 on: January 31, 2010, 06:17:48 am »
Quote
I don't know who first split the first position into two, but I've never agreed with it.

As far as I remember, the first, who did this division was the Wikipedia, and - as I suppose - it was copied from there by Taronyu.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Dictionary
« Reply #439 on: January 31, 2010, 07:03:37 am »
I decided to do this, regardless of whether I copied or not. It's easier for the sorting, and the naming of a position, for me, doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. There is only one infix that goes in pre-first, so I don't think it matters, all that much.

Also, added an appendix with all of the numbers. It looks good, I think. Let me know what you think.

Version 7.5 up.

 

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