Author Topic: Do demonstratives contract?  (Read 1109 times)

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Do demonstratives contract?
« on: May 16, 2011, 01:37:35 am »
Quote
tsaatanä - seems incorrect as two vowels together aren't allowed. probably tsa-atanä?
just tsatanä I think (but not sure).

I think it can be tsa-atan. This seems to be the same as fya'o-o, oe-eo etc.

...however last I recall they do contract.  Was there ever a ruling on this, and if so, what was it?

Other questionable examples: peekxan, fneeltu, tsaaungia, fììlva

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 02:22:46 am »
Interesting find…

I don’t recall that this has ever been addressed.
The only ruling we have is about dual/trial leniting forms, ekxan was specifically mentioned at one point that it would become mekxan/pxekxan. So this could call for *pekxan as “which barrier” but with this we have the choice to put it at the end. :)

I’m really not sure about the others, since they don’t cause lenition…

Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 02:41:41 am »
Wou...

I seem to be too good at fishing out something we haven't yet found out about in the language ;D

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 08:44:55 am »
Up to now, the only things that do contract are plurality markers and the attributive -a- on adjectives (apxa + -a > apxa).

I would suspect that fì- and tsa- are more like the adpositions, where we know contraction is resisted, but someone should definitely ask Herr Professor Doktor Frommer about this.

(Suddenly wondering how to say "this fern.")
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 12:11:07 pm »

Fralo is canon.

I actually rather strongly expect these things to contract in everyday speech when they meet the same vowel:

 fì- ››› fìpxa (this fern)
 tsa- ››› tsatan (that light)
 fra- ››› fram’a (every doubt)
 fne- fnekxan (a kind of barrier)

I would save the hyphens for an audience before the Tsahìk and Olo’eyktan at best.


Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 12:31:49 am »

Fralo is canon.

I actually rather strongly expect these things to contract in everyday speech when they meet the same vowel:

 fì- ››› fìpxa (this fern)
 tsa- ››› tsatan (that light)
 fra- ››› fram’a (every doubt)
 fne- fnekxan (a kind of barrier)

I would save the hyphens for an audience before the Tsahìk and Olo’eyktan at best.

Just as I thought.  Although it's a wonder we haven't yet had any direct ruling from Frommer yet...

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 02:11:26 am »
We do now ;)

Prrton was on the right track :)

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 08:55:34 pm »

Fralo is canon.

I actually rather strongly expect these things to contract in everyday speech when they meet the same vowel:

 fì- ››› fìpxa (this fern)
 tsa- ››› tsatan (that light)
 fra- ››› fram’a (every doubt)
 fne- fnekxan (a kind of barrier)

I would save the hyphens for an audience before the Tsahìk and Olo’eyktan at best.

Prrton, by this last statement, are you inferring that using hyphens in situations like the above is a ceremonial usage?

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Offline Prrton

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Re: Do demonstratives contract?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2011, 05:44:57 pm »

Fralo is canon.

I actually rather strongly expect these things to contract in everyday speech when they meet the same vowel:

 fì- ››› fìpxa (this fern)
 tsa- ››› tsatan (that light)
 fra- ››› fram’a (every doubt)
 fne- fnekxan (a kind of barrier)

I would save the hyphens for an audience before the Tsahìk and Olo’eyktan at best.

Prrton, by this last statement, are you inferring that using hyphens in situations like the above is a ceremonial usage?

NO! Not at all. I'm just showing a morpheme boundary.

They *might* be pronounced a bit differently in very formal speech, but I don't think we need to capture that in writing. Based on Paul's ruling, they just collapse into each other.

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« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 06:00:11 pm by Prrton »

 

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